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Environment & Energy
In reply to the discussion: Mileage (mpg) Using Ethanol Seen 20% Higher Than EPA Says - Bloomberg [View all]Bill USA
(6,436 posts)81. obtuse arguments ignoring realities of starting a new product or integrated product delivery system
"If E85 is so economical, why doesn't an ethanol company open up an E85 station of its own."
YOu are affecting ignorance as to the enormous costs of going into a separate industry - retailing a new fuel while operating the production facilities. Any business involved in growing its production operation isn't going to take on another whole task of setting up retailers at the same time. Big Oil started buying up retail outlets in the last couple of decades but that was after almost 100 years of operating the manufacturng/refining end of the business. Finally, in mid 1980s when they paid Congress to pass a low allowing them to integrate vertically they then began buying the pesky independent reatailers. The obvious benefit is to have tighter contro over pricing the product.
... also the Government made a decision that it would be more efficient to employ the already existing infrastructure for distributing fuel for light transportation than build a seperate infrastructure costing billions. THis would also be much much quicker way of making the new fuel available to buyers.
... 'You just posted link after link to studies telling me that ethanol makes gas cheaper. Wouldn't consumers be clamoring for E10? '
THe lowering of the price of gas is not apparent as we can't run reality for the last ten years - without ethanol - and then back up time and rerun reality with ethanol being in the mix. People do not have way of seeing what the price would be with ethanol present and with ethanol not present.
"Why does this surprise you. Burger King doesn't sell the Big Mac, does it?"
The oil companies are supplying a commodity - fuel to run autombiles and trucks. IF an alternative commodity is available it should be able to compete with other commodities (gasoline from petroleum) . Just as Microsoft was taken to court for not making browsers other that Internet Explorer readily availalbe to those who bought PCs. If Microsoft did not make these other browsers as available to consumers of their computer operaing system this is considered a restraint of trade. THus, Big Oil should make competing fuels available. THat's for E85. For blending the Government forced the issue on the basis that the ethanol was needed to bring down GHG emissions from automobiles and light trucks.
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Mileage (mpg) Using Ethanol Seen 20% Higher Than EPA Says - Bloomberg [View all]
Bill USA
Sep 2013
OP
they improved combustion of ethanol by increazing spark advance which higher octane ethanol or
Bill USA
Sep 2013
#7
You are, sadly, misinformed. EPA uses the Heating Value of ethanol compared to gasoline's HV
Bill USA
Sep 2013
#14
I never said one could optimize engines to runon ethanol & double th fuel efficiency of current FFVs
Bill USA
Sep 2013
#21
three MIT scientists designed a DI turbocharged engine with ethanol (DI) that gets 25-30% better mpg
Bill USA
Sep 2013
#22
CORRECTION: Ethanol's Fuel Efficiency (per EPA) is DOUBLED by the Ethanol DI turbocharged engine
Bill USA
Sep 2013
#24
Ethanol's portion of the increase in price of food 9.8% - 15.7%, Energy's portion: 35% - CBO
Bill USA
Sep 2013
#25
thats not the whole picture. octane rating is important cause you burning the fuel under compression
Bill USA
Sep 2013
#8
Yes. Neither is burned with 100% efficiency. Any improvement in either is great!
NYC_SKP
Sep 2013
#9
it's okay to be skeptical. Here is a link to a report on research by Michael Wang, U.S. Argonne
Bill USA
Sep 2013
#19
You can easily adjust spark advance, but not compression ratio. So, you won't get optimal results
leveymg
Sep 2013
#27
it's done by having computer control a turbo-charger. Fuel is monitored for alcohol content which
Bill USA
Sep 2013
#28
Of course, with the same variable boost you can achieve higher MPG running gasoline than alky
leveymg
Sep 2013
#30
a higher octane, higher latent heat fuel (ethanol, methanol) will always enable higher boosts than a
Bill USA
Sep 2013
#33
As a practical matter, gas engines rarely run more than 15 pounds boost (1.0 bar) on the street
leveymg
Sep 2013
#34
your personal attack on me does not make up for your lack of an argument. You are claiming that I
Bill USA
Sep 2013
#72
your personal brand of logic seems to allow you to assert "A" and "not A" simultaneously.
Bill USA
Sep 2013
#95
the article refers to a study (link provided) that involved altering the ignition timing of the cars
Bill USA
Sep 2013
#15
the study referred to in the article in OP points out that current FFVs CAN DO MUCH BETTER- IF THE
Bill USA
Sep 2013
#18
this won't happen but what should be done is add methanol to the ethanol for blending with gas. In
Bill USA
Sep 2013
#35
the cost of buiding the infrastructure to distribute it would be enormous. The cars are not cheap.
Bill USA
Sep 2013
#39
cost of CNG fueling station $10,000 to $2 million. Which do you think is the commercial application?
Bill USA
Sep 2013
#45
I expect you'll be buying the NG Civic for an additional $10,000?? be my guest.
Bill USA
Sep 2013
#48
http://scarcewhales.blogspot.com/2009/10/petropolis-and-brazilian-ethanol.html?m=1
wercal
Sep 2013
#56
the Real cost of oil/gasoline: Over $5.28 a gallon National DEfense Council study
Bill USA
Sep 2013
#58
almost all the of ethanol consumed @ a 10% blend used by all drivers in U.S. in 2012 13.2 billion
Bill USA
Sep 2013
#65
the reason we don't have more E85 pumps is that Oil industry has been fighting it like crazy
Bill USA
Sep 2013
#75
cost of Brazil's ethanol subsidy is TRIVIAL compared to STAGGERING costs of Global Warming
Bill USA
Sep 2013
#64
note I did NOT say NG was not viable. Just that converting it to methanol would be a better way to
Bill USA
Sep 2013
#73
Doesns't matter if it doesn't scare you. You have to have a credible business plan toconvince a bank
Bill USA
Sep 2013
#94
Gas(avg all grades): $3.63. Ethanol retail (avg): $2.95.. corn down 30% ovr 1 yr (see links)
Bill USA
Sep 2013
#47
Ethanol price 20% less than gasoline. E85 actually gets about 20% less mpg than gas powered car as
Bill USA
Sep 2013
#53
even so (no links again) given the real price of gas is $4.60 - $5.60 ethanol is far cheaper.
Bill USA
Sep 2013
#59
Honda sells two FFVs in BRazil only, that achieve comparable power, torque and mpg as gasoline cars.
Bill USA
Sep 2013
#60
Ethanol brings down the price of gas ~20% - Merrill Lynch - more than makes up for E85 price LOL
Bill USA
Sep 2013
#76
(Another) Economist (not ML) says RFS saves drivers up to $1.50 per gallon - Biofuels Digest
Bill USA
Sep 2013
#86
some more info on methanol which should be added to ethanol to be blended with gasoline.
Bill USA
Sep 2013
#36
I included a link (in OP) to report on the study. You have to look there 4 the details. E85 mostly
Bill USA
Sep 2013
#17
the reason there are so few stations with pumps for E85 is the Oil Industry has lobbied to keep
Bill USA
Sep 2013
#32
If you were working at EPA or Dept of Energy you would be falling over Oil industry lobbyists all
Bill USA
Sep 2013
#41
go to link to see very good articles in BusinessWeek, Consumer Federation of AMerica, & others that
Bill USA
Sep 2013
#77
obtuse arguments ignoring realities of starting a new product or integrated product delivery system
Bill USA
Sep 2013
#81
the operating system on all IBM PCs is written by Microsoft. Actually, Microsoft DOES OWN computers
Bill USA
Sep 2013
#90
the question is not whether microsoft OWNs but did they write the operating systems use on IBM PCs
Bill USA
Sep 2013
#98
regarding muscling independent retailers to not make E85 available is restraint of trade violation
Bill USA
Sep 2013
#82
NG vehicles Methane Emissions raises their CO2e emissions to >2x diesels - PennState
Bill USA
Sep 2013
#99
Water used to make one gallon of Ethanol: 2.7 gal; to make a gallon of gasoline: 97 gallons
Bill USA
Sep 2013
#85
Note that I am advocating adding methanol to ethanol, precisely because we need more fuel
Bill USA
Sep 2013
#96
yeah, I just can't forget the secret Energy Task Force meetings CHeney had with all those...FARMERS!
Bill USA
Sep 2013
#78
NG vehicles Methane Emissions raises their CO2e emissions to >2x diesels - PennState
Bill USA
Sep 2013
#102