Environment & Energy

Bill USA

(6,436 posts)

96. Note that I am advocating adding methanol to ethanol, precisely because we need more fuel

Sun Sep 29, 2013, 03:24 PM

Sep 2013

to supplant gasoline than we can get quickly from ethanol. we first can make methanol from natural gas, as has been done for decades. At the same time, expansion of manufacture of methanol from any organic source of material, forestry waste, agricultural waste should be expanded to replace fossil fuel methanol withe renewable methanol.

This is the quickest and cheapest way to cut our consumption of gasoline and petroleum, increaseing our energy security and reducing GHG emissions from the light transportation sector.

using natural gas in cars directly is problematic due to methanol emissions form BG vehicles.

Natural Gas vehicles Methane Emissions raises their CO2e emissions to >2x diesels - PennState
http://www.democraticunderground.com/112754698

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Mileage (mpg) Using Ethanol Seen 20% Higher Than EPA Says - Bloomberg [View all] Bill USA Sep 2013 OP

Hogwash. HooptieWagon Sep 2013 #1

The wording of the article is misleading, I agree. NYC_SKP Sep 2013 #4

they improved combustion of ethanol by increazing spark advance which higher octane ethanol or Bill USA Sep 2013 #7

The stoichiometric ratios for gas and alcohol are vastly different. HooptieWagon Sep 2013 #12

You are, sadly, misinformed. EPA uses the Heating Value of ethanol compared to gasoline's HV Bill USA Sep 2013 #14

I got over 40 years experience working on engines. HooptieWagon Sep 2013 #20

I never said one could optimize engines to runon ethanol & double th fuel efficiency of current FFVs Bill USA Sep 2013 #21

three MIT scientists designed a DI turbocharged engine with ethanol (DI) that gets 25-30% better mpg Bill USA Sep 2013 #22

CORRECTION: Ethanol's Fuel Efficiency (per EPA) is DOUBLED by the Ethanol DI turbocharged engine Bill USA Sep 2013 #24

Ethanol's portion of the increase in price of food 9.8% - 15.7%, Energy's portion: 35% - CBO Bill USA Sep 2013 #25

read the article. your comment doesn't apply towhat they did in their study. Bill USA Sep 2013 #5

Essentially, for your truck, you're correct. House of Roberts Sep 2013 #6

see comment 22 Bill USA Sep 2013 #23

More horsepower better mileage very cool. RGinNJ Sep 2013 #2

Be that as it may, Ethanol's Energy Content is 33 percent lower than Gasoline. NYC_SKP Sep 2013 #3

thats not the whole picture. octane rating is important cause you burning the fuel under compression Bill USA Sep 2013 #8

Yes. Neither is burned with 100% efficiency. Any improvement in either is great! NYC_SKP Sep 2013 #9

it's okay to be skeptical. Here is a link to a report on research by Michael Wang, U.S. Argonne Bill USA Sep 2013 #19

You can easily adjust spark advance, but not compression ratio. So, you won't get optimal results leveymg Sep 2013 #27

it's done by having computer control a turbo-charger. Fuel is monitored for alcohol content which Bill USA Sep 2013 #28

Of course, with the same variable boost you can achieve higher MPG running gasoline than alky leveymg Sep 2013 #30

a higher octane, higher latent heat fuel (ethanol, methanol) will always enable higher boosts than a Bill USA Sep 2013 #33

As a practical matter, gas engines rarely run more than 15 pounds boost (1.0 bar) on the street leveymg Sep 2013 #34

I object... PamW Sep 2013 #69

and I object to people misquoting or misrepresenting what i said. Bill USA Sep 2013 #70

What tune are you singing... PamW Sep 2013 #71

your personal attack on me does not make up for your lack of an argument. You are claiming that I Bill USA Sep 2013 #72

I have no problem with the paper PamW Sep 2013 #79

your personal brand of logic seems to allow you to assert "A" and "not A" simultaneously. Bill USA Sep 2013 #95

We have a 2014 ford focus madokie Sep 2013 #10

the article refers to a study (link provided) that involved altering the ignition timing of the cars Bill USA Sep 2013 #15

With E85 our miles per gallon went down madokie Sep 2013 #16

the study referred to in the article in OP points out that current FFVs CAN DO MUCH BETTER- IF THE Bill USA Sep 2013 #18

Correct me if I'm wrong but... wercal Sep 2013 #29

this won't happen but what should be done is add methanol to the ethanol for blending with gas. In Bill USA Sep 2013 #35

Why not skipnthe methanol wercal Sep 2013 #38

the cost of buiding the infrastructure to distribute it would be enormous. The cars are not cheap. Bill USA Sep 2013 #39

Natural Gas has been used in souther Europe for decades wercal Sep 2013 #40

how much pressure is the gas under in your brother's car? see link Bill USA Sep 2013 #43

cost of CNG fueling station $10,000 to $2 million. Which do you think is the commercial application? Bill USA Sep 2013 #45

I work in construction. 2 million doesn"t scare me at all. wercal Sep 2013 #46

I expect you'll be buying the NG Civic for an additional $10,000?? be my guest. Bill USA Sep 2013 #48

No but I'm in the market for.an aftermarket kit for alot less. wercal Sep 2013 #50

nothin to worry about there..... Bill USA Sep 2013 #61

You do understand that NG is considered wercal Sep 2013 #63

I am not questioning NG. I am commenting on using aftermarket add-on kits. Bill USA Sep 2013 #74

like $6,500 and if you want a compressor at home .. that will cost $3,500 Bill USA Sep 2013 #66

in Brazil 16 million. Bill USA Sep 2013 #51

Ethanol is heavily subsidized in Brazil. wercal Sep 2013 #52

documentation?? of course, you asked how many cars on ethanol, right? Bill USA Sep 2013 #54

http://scarcewhales.blogspot.com/2009/10/petropolis-and-brazilian-ethanol.html?m=1 wercal Sep 2013 #56

the Real cost of oil/gasoline: Over $5.28 a gallon National DEfense Council study Bill USA Sep 2013 #58

Consumer care about any of that is less than zero wercal Sep 2013 #62

almost all the of ethanol consumed @ a 10% blend used by all drivers in U.S. in 2012 13.2 billion Bill USA Sep 2013 #65

the reason we don't have more E85 pumps is that Oil industry has been fighting it like crazy Bill USA Sep 2013 #75

cost of Brazil's ethanol subsidy is TRIVIAL compared to STAGGERING costs of Global Warming Bill USA Sep 2013 #64

note I did NOT say NG was not viable. Just that converting it to methanol would be a better way to Bill USA Sep 2013 #73

Doesns't matter if it doesn't scare you. You have to have a credible business plan toconvince a bank Bill USA Sep 2013 #94

Gas(avg all grades): $3.63. Ethanol retail (avg): $2.95.. corn down 30% ovr 1 yr (see links) Bill USA Sep 2013 #47

Most consumers are smart enough to know that ethanol still costs more wercal Sep 2013 #49

Ethanol price 20% less than gasoline. E85 actually gets about 20% less mpg than gas powered car as Bill USA Sep 2013 #53

Consumer Reports found it to be a 29% deficit wercal Sep 2013 #57

even so (no links again) given the real price of gas is $4.60 - $5.60 ethanol is far cheaper. Bill USA Sep 2013 #59

Honda sells two FFVs in BRazil only, that achieve comparable power, torque and mpg as gasoline cars. Bill USA Sep 2013 #60

the 'joke' is it does not have to be this way. see OP Bill USA Sep 2013 #100

You are correct madokie Sep 2013 #67

Ethanol brings down the price of gas ~20% - Merrill Lynch - more than makes up for E85 price LOL Bill USA Sep 2013 #76

(Another) Economist (not ML) says RFS saves drivers up to $1.50 per gallon - Biofuels Digest Bill USA Sep 2013 #86

what do they pay for gas (unsubsidized) in Europe? Bill USA Sep 2013 #55

some more info on methanol which should be added to ethanol to be blended with gasoline. Bill USA Sep 2013 #36

This weekend I got 55mpg on our city blend postulater Sep 2013 #11

What blend of ethanol? E10? E15? E85? NickB79 Sep 2013 #13

I included a link (in OP) to report on the study. You have to look there 4 the details. E85 mostly Bill USA Sep 2013 #17

You have hit on one of the big drawbacks of ethanol wercal Sep 2013 #31

the reason there are so few stations with pumps for E85 is the Oil Industry has lobbied to keep Bill USA Sep 2013 #32

I'd like to see an example of the oil lobby wercal Sep 2013 #37

If you were working at EPA or Dept of Energy you would be falling over Oil industry lobbyists all Bill USA Sep 2013 #41

oil industry one of the biggest players in lobbying Government Bill USA Sep 2013 #42

So is the corn lobby wercal Sep 2013 #44

go to link to see very good articles in BusinessWeek, Consumer Federation of AMerica, & others that Bill USA Sep 2013 #77

Lets break down exactly what you are saying wercal Sep 2013 #80

obtuse arguments ignoring realities of starting a new product or integrated product delivery system Bill USA Sep 2013 #81

Microsoft doesm't own the computers wercal Sep 2013 #89

the operating system on all IBM PCs is written by Microsoft. Actually, Microsoft DOES OWN computers Bill USA Sep 2013 #90

You really have no idea do you? wercal Sep 2013 #91

pretending you can't read my comment (90) are you?? to quote myself: Bill USA Sep 2013 #92

don't wander off the point. in cmnt 81 I addressed your errors thus: Bill USA Sep 2013 #93

the question is not whether microsoft OWNs but did they write the operating systems use on IBM PCs Bill USA Sep 2013 #98

regarding muscling independent retailers to not make E85 available is restraint of trade violation Bill USA Sep 2013 #82

Independent fuel retailer attributes success to ethanol blends Bill USA Sep 2013 #83

Shocking - A 'good news ethanol story from Iowa wercal Sep 2013 #88

NG vehicles Methane Emissions raises their CO2e emissions to >2x diesels - PennState Bill USA Sep 2013 #99

I am merely repeating the reports published in Wall Street Journal, and by Bill USA Sep 2013 #84

Water used to make one gallon of Ethanol: 2.7 gal; to make a gallon of gasoline: 97 gallons Bill USA Sep 2013 #85

Its not a matter of how much water is used... wercal Sep 2013 #87

Note that I am advocating adding methanol to ethanol, precisely because we need more fuel Bill USA Sep 2013 #96

oil refineries in IOWA - and proposed Hyperion Tar Sands refinery Bill USA Sep 2013 #97

yeah, I just can't forget the secret Energy Task Force meetings CHeney had with all those...FARMERS! Bill USA Sep 2013 #78

Good news, but (maybe) automakers wont do it because of emission standards? DJ13 Sep 2013 #26

So what is the alternative to ethanol blended gasoline? 4dsc Sep 2013 #68

In the near term newblewtoo Sep 2013 #101

NG vehicles Methane Emissions raises their CO2e emissions to >2x diesels - PennState Bill USA Sep 2013 #102