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caraher

(6,278 posts)
20. 20% is at most a rough limit with no grid upgrades and no storage
Tue Oct 22, 2013, 05:42 PM
Oct 2013

It's remarkable how you have so much to say about what the NAS actually says without quoting anything from any of their reports. Does this sound like a claim of a hard limit? From page 23 of "Electricity from Renewable Resources: Status, Prospects, and Impediments"

In the period from 2020 to 2035, it is reasonable to envision that continued and even further accelerated deployment could potentially result in non-hydroelectric renewables providing, collectively, 20 percent or more of domestic electricity generation by 2035. In the third timeframe, beyond 2035, continued development of renewable electricity technologies could potentially provide lower costs and result in further increases in the percentage of renewable electricity generated from renewable resources. However, achieving a predominant (i.e., >50 percent) level of renewable electricity penetration will require new scientific advances (e.g., in solar photovoltaics, other renewable electricity technologies, and storage technologies) and dramatic changes in how we generate, transmit, and use electricity.


NREL has studied even higher levels of renewables, though they only look at hour-by-hour fluctuations. They think 80% renewables by 2050 is possible. But I don't suppose you believe anything from NREL.

Incidentally, your hectoring about the need for degrees in hard sciences is wasted on me. I know what degrees I hold. You don't, nor do I know what degrees you may hold, no matter what you may assert. Such is the internet. Incidentally, argument from authority is generally considered a logical fallacy, and has particularly bad reputation among those who know the history of science. I also know that my first-year undergraduate students who do not yet have college degrees are perfectly capable of reading and comprehending these reports.

Yes, conservation of energy applies, as always, but while there are certainly important load management issues to be faced for any electric power system (with or without renewables), the fanciful "1 watt over the limit" scenario you describe has nothing to do with real-world limitations. It's certainly true that an energy source can't magically produce more than some hard limit just because there is more demand. But this scarcely amounts to a physics-based rebuttal to the notion that some combination of an advanced grid, large-scale storage, and designing systems to take advantage of "geographic averaging" locally-fluctuating resources can manage this quite effectively. Yes, it's not your father's electric grid, but isn't that the whole point?
Wonderful. Cleita Oct 2013 #1
Some governments see things in perspective.. PamW Oct 2013 #2
Find another way to boil water. wundermaus Oct 2013 #3
I'll let a scientist tell you what the problem is... PamW Oct 2013 #4
And I'll Let Max Planck rebut: Demeter Oct 2013 #5
You mean we have to let a generation of environmentalists die out? PamW Oct 2013 #6
NO, I mean we have to let a generation of nuclear sell-outs die off Demeter Oct 2013 #7
Sweetheart deal on price controls FogerRox Oct 2013 #8
£92.50 is the level they've set muriel_volestrangler Oct 2013 #11
The prediction for gas when the plant comes online is £74 FBaggins Oct 2013 #18
That's a sweetheart deal? FBaggins Oct 2013 #19
It's a lot less than offshore wind is getting Yo_Mama Oct 2013 #22
Then the analogy doesn't hold.... PamW Oct 2013 #9
No scientist would pervert a study like you have here. kristopher Oct 2013 #10
WRONG! PamW Oct 2013 #12
The credentials required are English language comprehension caraher Oct 2013 #14
WRONG too!! PamW Oct 2013 #15
Specifically which laws of physics are being violated? caraher Oct 2013 #16
Conservation of Energy PamW Oct 2013 #17
20% is at most a rough limit with no grid upgrades and no storage caraher Oct 2013 #20
That's not "at most"... it's exactly what they're saying. FBaggins Oct 2013 #21
Try to find the 1992 National Academy Energy Study PamW Oct 2013 #24
Well said & well sourced. FogerRox Oct 2013 #26
Well said K. FogerRox Oct 2013 #27
So many assumptions... I am sad for you. wundermaus Oct 2013 #23
So is the Hindenberg PamW Oct 2013 #25
Look, the only way we can sustain modern industrial society without fossil fuels is nuclear power. hunter Oct 2013 #13
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