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PamW

(1,825 posts)
20. WRONG AGAIN!!
Thu Nov 7, 2013, 10:12 AM
Nov 2013

johnd83,

If the fuel melts into a puddle it CAN NOT go critical. With the low enrichments of fuel in power reactors, the reactor core is RELYING on the heterogeneous lattice of fuel and water to aid criticality. The lattice dimensions are chosen to optimize the following neutron "life". The neutron is born in the fuel, and "leaks" out of the fuel into the water moderator. It slows down in the water moderator, particularly through the resolved resonance region. Only when the neutron is below the resonance region in energy does it re-enter the fuel to cause a fission.

In the region of a few keV to a few hundred keV, Uranium-238 has massive absorption resonances in the absorption cross-section. Log onto Brookhaven's Nuclear Data Center site and plot the absorption cross-section of U-238. If the neutrons slow down in the water, then there's no U-238 atoms around to absorb them parasitically. If the fuel melts, so that you have a fuel / water slurry then the neutrons will slow down in the presence of U-238 and its absorption resonances and will be parasitically absorbed, and it is therefore IMPOSSIBLE for the melted core to go critical. All this crap about melted cores going critical is just that; CRAP. The material mixture in a power reactor REQUIRES a heterogeneous core geometry in order to achieve criticality. ( Remember I used to DESIGN reactors when I worked for Argonne ).

Even in your accelerated-driven throrium reactor, the FUEL region will be where Thorium is transmuted into Uranium-233, and the U-233 is fissioned; so your FUEL will have fission products in it if there is no mechanism to instantly remove them. So even in an accelerator-driven thorium reactor, you will still have fission products in your fuel. When you shutdown the accelerator; you stop the fission energy generation. That's done in a power reactor by dropping the control rods; the fission energy production STOPS. But the reactor is still susceptible to meltdown due to the energy produced by the radioactive decay of the fission products; and the thorium reactor will have the SAME PROBLEM.

In both the Three Mile Island Unit 2 reactor meltdown, and the Fukushima meltdowns, the production of energy via fission STOPPED over an hour before the meltdown started. In TMI, the reactor was sub-critical for 90 minutes and remained unmelted as the coolant pumps cooled the core. The reduction in pressure due to the stuck safety valve caused boiling in the TMI core so that the fluid that was being pumped by the pumps was a two-phase steam / water mixture. The pumps don't like that, and make strange noises. At 90 minutes, the operators turned off the pumps because of those noises; and that is when the meltdown ensued. TMI was totally reversible until the operators shutdown the coolant pumps. In Fukushima, the reactors were shutdown at the time of the quake, and were being cooled by emergency power provided by the diesel-electric generators. When the tsunami broke over the plant an hour later, it flooded out the diesel-electric generators, and swept away their fuel tank which was above ground; and without electric power, the coolant pumps stopped, and hence commenced the Fukushima meltdowns. But in both TMI and Fukushima, the fission power had LONG been STOPPED. It was the power of the decay heat that melted those reactors; and your thorium reactor will have the SAME PROBLEM. If it produces energy, it is producing fissions, and that produces fission products, and those produce decay heat.

PamW

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

Won't take long for CFLDem Nov 2013 #1
Sorry, but bunk johnd83 Nov 2013 #2
100% WRONG!! PamW Nov 2013 #5
I think you misunderstand my point johnd83 Nov 2013 #7
100% WRONG PamW Nov 2013 #16
The thorium reactors use a particle accelerator johnd83 Nov 2013 #17
WRONG AGAIN!! PamW Nov 2013 #20
There is plenty of water to moderate neutrons in a damaged reactor johnd83 Nov 2013 #25
Reactor Physics 101 PamW Nov 2013 #29
The other advantage of thorium is the decay products become inert much faster johnd83 Nov 2013 #30
Actually it is NOT a huge assumption... PamW Nov 2013 #35
I still don't understand your point johnd83 Nov 2013 #36
Criticality in non-operating - but NOT in melted. PamW Nov 2013 #39
You are 100% WRONG johnd83 Nov 2013 #38
100% WRONG!!! PamW Nov 2013 #40
Yes, I was going to remark about the five ton engine it would take Warpy Nov 2013 #27
I want a nuclear vacuum cleaner! longship Nov 2013 #3
Those are different technologies johnd83 Nov 2013 #4
Yup! They are talking about a Sterling engine now. longship Nov 2013 #6
The Voyager spacecraft only hase a few hundred watts of power johnd83 Nov 2013 #8
Voyager has shut down its cameras. Long ago. longship Nov 2013 #9
I think for the next 100 years or so it is going to be mostly manned/unmanned craft johnd83 Nov 2013 #10
Fusion, unfortunately, is probably a long way off. longship Nov 2013 #11
Fusion power is not really that far off johnd83 Nov 2013 #12
But the technology is not yet practical. longship Nov 2013 #13
The technology I linked to is a magnetic containment plasma system johnd83 Nov 2013 #14
Yes! And I've heard of another in Europe. longship Nov 2013 #15
Correct. PamW Nov 2013 #22
Fusion propulsion is a lot easier than electricity generation bananas Nov 2013 #18
If you're going to use it for propulsion, yes. longship Nov 2013 #19
Not quite... PamW Nov 2013 #21
I never said that one would get to light speeds. longship Nov 2013 #23
Look at momentum per unit energy PamW Nov 2013 #41
Thanks. longship Nov 2013 #42
That's if your concern is momentum per unit energy; but often it's not, in rockets muriel_volestrangler Nov 2013 #43
Let's examine TOTAL mass.. PamW Nov 2013 #44
Well, yes, that's the point - you use nuclear power, or solar (ie external) muriel_volestrangler Nov 2013 #45
IF Polywell Fusion works VASIMIR is DOA FogerRox Nov 2013 #46
Does anyone have the faintest idea what process is being claimed here? muriel_volestrangler Nov 2013 #24
I didn't get that either johnd83 Nov 2013 #26
"And he hasn’t released any papers, only press releases." arcane1 Nov 2013 #28
I'll try to post on it later - basically, you can increase decay rate by jiggling it with a laser bananas Nov 2013 #33
Finally found a somewhat relevant hit bananas Nov 2013 #34
Thanks - that gives us a theory that the laser is relevant muriel_volestrangler Nov 2013 #37
Oh, I agree, it's as credible as his "USEING HELYXZION TECHNOLOGY WE CAN CURE “ALL” DISEASE" bananas Nov 2013 #48
I forgot that one. kristopher Nov 2013 #49
Not the faintest. FogerRox Nov 2013 #47
It won't work, period. NNadir Nov 2013 #31
Why, Are we still thinking in individual cars, individual propulsion systems, ... CRH Nov 2013 #32
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