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kristopher

(29,798 posts)
41. And you still ignore the main point raised against your OP
Fri Nov 29, 2013, 07:04 PM
Nov 2013

You have, however, provided evidence for it.

If we compare wind&solar to primary energy growth, their average share drops to 4.2% over 10 years, and 6.8% over the last 5 years.


You might find this useful since it addresses both the rapidly changing trend lines for renewables and the use of primary energy as a meaningful metric.

Energy efficiency and renewables are more than adequate. As you can see from the cost-deployment charts we are at a major turning point in what will be selected going forward.









Just as food for thought, here is the status of world final energy consumption by source.



This is the concept behind calls for energy efficiency (a strategy that is anathema to the coal and nuclear industry because it slashes their profits).

The energy wasted from thermal sources is a very significant factor in understanding the issue of what energy source is doing what. Primary energy measures the total amount of energy that a fuel source yields - no matter whether it is powering our lives (ie electricity or or propulsion for autos) or whether it is waste heat being transferred to our waterways from nuclear plants or heat causing NO2* emissions off the hot engine block of an internal combustion.

An alternative (and most say better) way of looking at the production and use of energy is to measure what is needed and consumed by the actual work being accomplished. For example, an average internal combustion engine (ICE) powered car ejects 85% of the energy content of the gasoline it consumes as heat and only uses 15% for motive power. When we look for alternatives to gasoline do we think biofuels, and duplicate the efficiencies of the gasoline powered ICE or do we focus on batteries and electric motors that have far better efficiencies - typically using 90% of the input energy for locomotion?

Writ large, what does that mean? Take a look at this flow chart and note that the "rejected energy" comprised 58.1 quads of the total 95.1 quads of primary energy used in the US last year. How much was actually used to do the work of the nation? Only 37 quads.



If we look more closely at the various sectors we can see where the major opportunities for energy efficiency improvements are to be found:

Sorry, no tables on DU but the bold is a legend for the information below it.
Sector: Gross - Useful Energy; Rejected Energy (proportion of useful to rejected)

Transportation: 26.7 - 5.6; 21.1 (21 : 79)
Electric Generation: 38.10 - 12.40; 25.70 (33 : 67)

In sectors where the heat value of the energy is useful we see much higher efficiency
Industrial: 23.9 - 19.1; 4.77 (80 : 20)
Commercial: 8.29 - 5.39; 2.90 (65 : 35)
Residential: 10.60 - 6.9; 3.72 (65 : 35)

Now let's look at the Solar, Wind and Hydro Subset of Electric Generation. These produce electricity directly with insignificant primary energy lost as heat in the generation phase, however they do incur line losses of about 7%.

SolarWindHydro: 4.07 - 3.78; 0.285 (93 : 7)

Let's compare that to
Nuclear: 8.05 - 2.62; 5.43 (33 : 67)

In the US, the our fleet of nuclear reactors (what is it, down to 99 and falling fast?) might have produced 8.05 quads of primary energy, but at about 35% efficiency at the busbar and a further 7% line loss, (8.05q x 0.35 = 2.82q x 0.93) that only equals 2.62 quads actually delivered to the end user for work.

3.78q > 2.62q

See also: http://www.nawindpower.com/e107_plugins/content/content.php?content.11788#utm_medium=email&utm_source=LNH+07-19-2013&utm_campaign=NAW+News+Headlines


Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

SCIENCE says you are WRONG!!! PamW Nov 2013 #1
Please provide links to your statistics. Common sense says that you are wrong. rhett o rick Nov 2013 #5
BALONEY!!! PamW Nov 2013 #7
Do you trust the World Nuclear Association on design life? caraher Nov 2013 #8
WRONG!!! PamW Nov 2013 #11
It isn't ambiguous: "...designed for 30 or 40-year operating lives" kristopher Nov 2013 #32
Vessel lifetime PamW Nov 2013 #33
Your "WRONG" was wrong kristopher Nov 2013 #34
NOT in the SLIGHTEST!!! PamW Dec 2013 #42
Right, you aren't slightly wrong you are completely and demonstrably wrong. kristopher Dec 2013 #43
Proof by assertion again..???? PamW Dec 2013 #44
I like your third person use of "the progressives" caraher Dec 2013 #46
Wow! I was hoping to have a nice discussion but you went nuclear. rhett o rick Nov 2013 #15
Well, it's true.. PamW Nov 2013 #21
See http://www.democraticunderground.com/112756356 kristopher Nov 2013 #9
SCIENCE says that? Really? ljm2002 Nov 2013 #10
BALONEY!!! PamW Nov 2013 #12
Oh dear... ljm2002 Nov 2013 #13
Another "environmentalist" that doesn't understand the NAS PamW Nov 2013 #14
I can't help it... ljm2002 Nov 2013 #17
The above DELUSIONS are all in your head... PamW Nov 2013 #18
Nuclear Power is the right thing to do. PamW Nov 2013 #28
Nuclear and coal with CCS are poor choices to address climate change kristopher Nov 2013 #36
YAWN!!! Jacobsen again; and not even fresh; old 2009 "vintage"... PamW Dec 2013 #45
Don't buy the false claim about the NAS kristopher Nov 2013 #16
Kristopher is so familiar with the study... PamW Nov 2013 #19
OK, you redeemed yourself a bit with this: GliderGuider Nov 2013 #20
Only the CENSORED version from kristopher PamW Nov 2013 #22
DO I have it right, IIRC FogerRox Nov 2013 #23
It has to do with the stability of the grid PamW Nov 2013 #25
What do the National Academies of Science and Engineering say about our energy future? kristopher Nov 2013 #30
We can alway count on kristopher... PamW Nov 2013 #31
LOGIC says you are wrong (and so are the nuclear evangelists) GliderGuider Nov 2013 #2
That should be "Invalid logic" in your title kristopher Nov 2013 #3
I don't argue with evangelists any more. I just point out that there is no God... GliderGuider Nov 2013 #4
and that our species can't even come close to substituting for Him MisterP Nov 2013 #29
No Nukes colsohlibgal Nov 2013 #6
Yeah. Apparently. That's why we've had cheering for this rich boy's fantasy for 60 years... NNadir Nov 2013 #24
Well, many countries are pressing ahead with alternative energy sources claras Nov 2013 #26
China isn't a great example FBaggins Nov 2013 #27
The Answer to Climate Change Is Neither Renewable Energy, Nor Nuclear Power GliderGuider Nov 2013 #35
Also over the past decade renewables began to achieve grid parity kristopher Nov 2013 #37
The picture isn't much better when "energy" is restricted to electricity GliderGuider Nov 2013 #38
Judging by that off point answer you don't seem to know what primary energy is kristopher Nov 2013 #39
That's why the last one wasn't in terms of primary energy, but electricity. GliderGuider Nov 2013 #40
And you still ignore the main point raised against your OP kristopher Nov 2013 #41
Latest Discussions»Issue Forums»Environment & Energy»The Answer to Climate Cha...»Reply #41