Welcome to DU!
The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards.
Join the community:
Create a free account
Support DU (and get rid of ads!):
Become a Star Member
Latest Breaking News
Editorials & Other Articles
General Discussion
The DU Lounge
All Forums
Issue Forums
Culture Forums
Alliance Forums
Region Forums
Support Forums
Help & Search
Environment & Energy
In reply to the discussion: Denying Problems When We Don’t Like the Solutions (perhaps somewhat off-topic) [View all]OKIsItJustMe
(21,875 posts)51. It seems to me that delusion is only an advantage if we have free will
With no free will, I am not comforted by my illusion of free will. So, what is the point?
http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/features/are-we-free
[font face=Serif][font size=5]Are we free?[/font]
[font size=4]Neuroscience gives the wrong answer[/font]
by Daniel Dennett / October 16, 2014
Published in November 2014 issue of Prospect Magazine
[font size=3]For several millennia, people have worried about whether or not they have free will. What exactly worries them? No single answer suffices. For centuries the driving issue was about Gods supposed omniscience. If God knew what we were going to do before we did it, in what sense were we free to do otherwise? Werent we just acting out our parts in a Divine Script? Were any of our so-called decisions real decisions? Even before belief in an omniscient God began to wane, science took over the threatening role. Democritus, the ancient Greek philosopher and proto-scientist, postulated that the world, including us, was made of tiny entitiesatomsand imagined that unless atoms sometimes, unpredictably and for no reason, interrupted their trajectories with a random swerve, we would be trapped in causal chains that reached back for eternity, robbing us of our power to initiate actions on our own.
There are three main sources for the scientists unsettling discoveries. First, there is the putative timing of subjects decisions. This line of thought grew out of the work of the neurologist Benjamin Libet in the 1980s, which seemed to show that our brains made decisions before we, the conscious agents resident in those brains, could put in our oars. Second, there is the putative fallibility of subjects introspective judgements of their own agency, as reported by Daniel Wegner in his 2002 book, The Illusion of Conscious Will, which disclosed systematic errors in peoples judgements of their own role in actions undertaken by their limbs. Third, there is the unrecognised influence on subjects decisions of contextual factors that shouldnt be decisive, growing out of Stanley Milgrams and Philip Zimbardos notorious experiments into authority and obedience with college students back in the 1960s and 70s. More recent work exploring all three veins has come up with some new findings, and these have been seen by some to strengthen or even confirm the case from science against free will. In each area, Mele provides accurate, jargon-free accounts of the experiments and what they do and dont show. And in each case he locates what, in my opinion, are the most fundamental flaws in the reasoning by those scientists.
The mistakes are so obvious that one sometimes wonders how serious scientists could make them. What has lowered their threshold for careful analysis so catastrophically? Perhaps it is the temptation of glory. What a coup it would be if your neuroscience experiment brought about the collapse of several millennia of inconclusive philosophising about free will! A curious fact about these forays into philosophy is that almost invariably the scientists concentrate on the least scientifically informed, most simplistic conceptions of free will, as if to say they cant be bothered considering the subtleties of alternative views worked out by mere philosophers. For instance, all the experiments in the Libet tradition take as their test case of a freely willed decision a trivial choicebetween flicking or not flicking your wrist, or pushing the button on the left, not the rightwith nothing hinging on which decision you make. Mele aptly likens these situations to being confronted with many identical jars of peanuts on the supermarket shelf and deciding which to reach for. You need no reason to choose the one you choose so you let some unconscious bias direct your hand to a jarany jarthat is handy. Not an impressive model of a freely willed choice for which somebody might be held responsible. Moreover, as Mele points out, you are directed not to make a reasoned choice, so the fact that you have no clue about the source of your urge is hardly evidence that we, in general, are misled or clueless about how we make our choices.
It is a fact that when faced with actually tough decisionsabout whether to intervene in somebody elses crisis, for instance, or to go along with the crowd on some morally dubious adventurewe often disappoint ourselves and others with our craven behaviour. This sobering fact has been experimentally demonstrated in the Milgram and Zimbardo experiments and a host of milder, less traumatic experiments, but far from showing that we are always overwhelmed by context, these experiments invariably exhibit the capacity of a stalwart few to resist the enormous pressures arrayed against them. Is there a heroic minority of folks, then, with genuine free will, capable of being moved by good reasons even under duress? Its better than that: you can learnor be trainedto be on the alert for these pressures, and to resist them readily.
[/font][/font]
[font size=4]Neuroscience gives the wrong answer[/font]
by Daniel Dennett / October 16, 2014
Published in November 2014 issue of Prospect Magazine
[font size=3]For several millennia, people have worried about whether or not they have free will. What exactly worries them? No single answer suffices. For centuries the driving issue was about Gods supposed omniscience. If God knew what we were going to do before we did it, in what sense were we free to do otherwise? Werent we just acting out our parts in a Divine Script? Were any of our so-called decisions real decisions? Even before belief in an omniscient God began to wane, science took over the threatening role. Democritus, the ancient Greek philosopher and proto-scientist, postulated that the world, including us, was made of tiny entitiesatomsand imagined that unless atoms sometimes, unpredictably and for no reason, interrupted their trajectories with a random swerve, we would be trapped in causal chains that reached back for eternity, robbing us of our power to initiate actions on our own.
There are three main sources for the scientists unsettling discoveries. First, there is the putative timing of subjects decisions. This line of thought grew out of the work of the neurologist Benjamin Libet in the 1980s, which seemed to show that our brains made decisions before we, the conscious agents resident in those brains, could put in our oars. Second, there is the putative fallibility of subjects introspective judgements of their own agency, as reported by Daniel Wegner in his 2002 book, The Illusion of Conscious Will, which disclosed systematic errors in peoples judgements of their own role in actions undertaken by their limbs. Third, there is the unrecognised influence on subjects decisions of contextual factors that shouldnt be decisive, growing out of Stanley Milgrams and Philip Zimbardos notorious experiments into authority and obedience with college students back in the 1960s and 70s. More recent work exploring all three veins has come up with some new findings, and these have been seen by some to strengthen or even confirm the case from science against free will. In each area, Mele provides accurate, jargon-free accounts of the experiments and what they do and dont show. And in each case he locates what, in my opinion, are the most fundamental flaws in the reasoning by those scientists.
The mistakes are so obvious that one sometimes wonders how serious scientists could make them. What has lowered their threshold for careful analysis so catastrophically? Perhaps it is the temptation of glory. What a coup it would be if your neuroscience experiment brought about the collapse of several millennia of inconclusive philosophising about free will! A curious fact about these forays into philosophy is that almost invariably the scientists concentrate on the least scientifically informed, most simplistic conceptions of free will, as if to say they cant be bothered considering the subtleties of alternative views worked out by mere philosophers. For instance, all the experiments in the Libet tradition take as their test case of a freely willed decision a trivial choicebetween flicking or not flicking your wrist, or pushing the button on the left, not the rightwith nothing hinging on which decision you make. Mele aptly likens these situations to being confronted with many identical jars of peanuts on the supermarket shelf and deciding which to reach for. You need no reason to choose the one you choose so you let some unconscious bias direct your hand to a jarany jarthat is handy. Not an impressive model of a freely willed choice for which somebody might be held responsible. Moreover, as Mele points out, you are directed not to make a reasoned choice, so the fact that you have no clue about the source of your urge is hardly evidence that we, in general, are misled or clueless about how we make our choices.
It is a fact that when faced with actually tough decisionsabout whether to intervene in somebody elses crisis, for instance, or to go along with the crowd on some morally dubious adventurewe often disappoint ourselves and others with our craven behaviour. This sobering fact has been experimentally demonstrated in the Milgram and Zimbardo experiments and a host of milder, less traumatic experiments, but far from showing that we are always overwhelmed by context, these experiments invariably exhibit the capacity of a stalwart few to resist the enormous pressures arrayed against them. Is there a heroic minority of folks, then, with genuine free will, capable of being moved by good reasons even under duress? Its better than that: you can learnor be trainedto be on the alert for these pressures, and to resist them readily.
[/font][/font]
Edit history
Please sign in to view edit histories.
Recommendations
0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):
62 replies
= new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight:
NoneDon't highlight anything
5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
RecommendedHighlight replies with 5 or more recommendations
Denying Problems When We Don’t Like the Solutions (perhaps somewhat off-topic) [View all]
OKIsItJustMe
Nov 2014
OP
“Tool monkey” is two words, each of which describes a different aspect of Homo sapiens.
GliderGuider
Nov 2014
#9
Here is a look at a set of various raw materials and energy, with population growth
GliderGuider
Nov 2014
#21
None of us is entirely logically consistent. Humans are not very logical beings, after all.
GliderGuider
Nov 2014
#46
For someone who isn’t interested in persuading others, you certainly go out of your way…
OKIsItJustMe
Nov 2014
#59