Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News Editorials & Other Articles General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

NNadir

(38,532 posts)
41. I'm not generally reported as being "civil." That's a new one, but thanks...
Fri Mar 18, 2016, 10:17 PM
Mar 2016

Nonetheless I think you're taking the concept of "heat death," a little too far.

(That said, Boltzmann did commit suicide, but I don't think his discoveries of the statistical mechanical basis of the second law had much to do with it. I also don't think he was making a statement about population growth. It is said that he had classical clinical depression, a tragedy, for sure, for science as well as for his family.)

To state that the difference between nuclear energy and so called "renewable energy" is merely a "turf war" strikes me a vast over simplification of clearly different approaches that are distinctly relevant to the future of the human race. Now it may prove true that the human race is psychologically incapable of making good choices at the right time, but such an outcome is clearly not deterministic.

The extent to which we are experiencing heat death is a choice, not a technological, or for that matter, a physical imperative.

If one is speaking of entropy, energy density is an important concept. I have calculated that a human being living at an average continuous power consumption of 5000 watts - about twice average per capita global power consumption right now - would need to fission, in his or her lifetime, about 100 grams of plutonium. Given that more than 50% of the world population now lives under appalling conditions, this is an excellent moral argument for increasing, as opposed to decreasing, average power consumption. The hundred grams of plutonium is very different than the amount of dangerous natural gas, dangerous coal, or dangerous petroleum one must consume for the same result, or for that matter, the amount of steel one must refine to build wind turbines. Given that the uranium supply of the planet is essentially unlimited because of the macroscopic geochemical cycle, I'm not going to sit up at night worrying about the second law, so much as I'm going to worry about stupidity.

The universe is very far from the predicted "heat death," as one can see from both the local and universal distribution of the elements and the binding energy curve of nucleons. At least on a cosmic scale, the universe is still essentially pure hydrogen, with the rest of the periodic table being essentially a set of minor impurities.

If I see a young person who has figured entropy out, and is losing sleep over it, I advise them not to worry. Life is not so long that it will matter, or better put, need matter.

It is physically possible to reverse entropy if one has access to energy, so long as one has a heat sink. This is the basic principle behind every common industrial metal refined from an ore, or for that matter, an old fashioned ice tray in an electric freezer. The planet has been a stable radiating heat sink for billions of years, mostly, with some fluctuations, including some involved with explosively growing species, the "disaster" of oxygen releasing photosynthetic organisms being one such case. The current problem before humanity - and my cynicism aside I'm rather fond of humanity overall - is that it has disrupted the heat exchange properties of the planet, and this is entirely a function of not substituting nuclear energy for all other forms of energy, a task that is clearly feasible in the golden age of chemistry, if not simple and easy. (My opinion is that most things worth doing are not simple and easy.)

With all due respect, I still think you're attaching too much metaphysics to a physical concept.

Have a great weekend!

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

Oligarchy capitalism is killing our two most valuable resources: the planet and the people on it. nt JFKDem62 Mar 2016 #1
WWII and the Cold War were fought to decide whose system would get to wreck the planet. GliderGuider Mar 2016 #4
Once humans are extinct, the planet will recover. I wonder how many times humans have done this? JFKDem62 Mar 2016 #9
dude, this is the first time it is the fault of humans Viva_La_Revolution Mar 2016 #16
The biosphere is coming to an end. Earth will be out of the habitable zone in about 800 million DhhD Mar 2016 #45
a few incremental tweaks around the edges should do the trick tk2kewl Mar 2016 #2
Just need to build on the ACA / FlatBaroque Mar 2016 #6
Fund Planned Parenthood pscot Mar 2016 #21
But but EEEvil Guverment Regulations are Killing Jobs! n/t n2doc Mar 2016 #3
I fully agree Dragonfli Mar 2016 #5
Done! And thanks for asking! nt GliderGuider Mar 2016 #8
Thank YOU! people need to understand we are actually facing extermination and neo-liberalism Dragonfli Mar 2016 #11
Yes, I know about it. GliderGuider Mar 2016 #12
"Oh, we won't go extinct. Our big brains will save us." CrispyQ Mar 2016 #13
This world has witnessed and endured several extinction level events, planets do not care about Dragonfli Mar 2016 #15
Based on our experiences with Biosphere I and II GliderGuider Mar 2016 #17
Thanks for the input, I instinctively doubted we could accomplish it successfully, but with what you Dragonfli Mar 2016 #18
I knew a woman who crewed the second Biosphere II mission GliderGuider Mar 2016 #19
Wasn't one of the main problems the concrete taking up oxygen from the atmosphere? hatrack Mar 2016 #22
Close. Here's a description of the problems they had GliderGuider Mar 2016 #27
Apples and Oranges. Ghost Dog Mar 2016 #30
I was commenting on Dragonfli's reference to closed environments. GliderGuider Mar 2016 #33
Yes, I understand, Paul. Ghost Dog Mar 2016 #38
Yes, I think you're probably right about that. GliderGuider Mar 2016 #39
Yes, I think the new feudal overlords will attempt this: Ghost Dog Mar 2016 #31
The Human infestation will be short-lived StandingInLeftField Mar 2016 #7
That's what it looks like. nt GliderGuider Mar 2016 #10
This gets me in the gut. SusanCalvin Mar 2016 #14
Me too, and I'm 61 years old. Ghost Dog Mar 2016 #32
63, almost 64 here. SusanCalvin Mar 2016 #35
I've been trying to digest this information for 12 years now GliderGuider Mar 2016 #36
I'd also add that much of this was done in the name of anticapitalism MisterP Mar 2016 #20
You lost me when you attached the second law of thermodynamics to, um... NNadir Mar 2016 #23
We have different worldviews? I'm stunned. GliderGuider Mar 2016 #24
Well shriveled is a hard word. NNadir Mar 2016 #25
It has been an enormously useful concept for me. GliderGuider Mar 2016 #26
No offense taken. NNadir Mar 2016 #37
Neoliberal Capitalism and the Second Law GliderGuider Mar 2016 #40
I'm not generally reported as being "civil." That's a new one, but thanks... NNadir Mar 2016 #41
Fortunately the world has room enough for both scientists and philosophers. GliderGuider Mar 2016 #42
Well then, given the clearer perspective on our "philosophical" differences, may I suggest... NNadir Mar 2016 #43
Well said. I think I know what you mean about seeing. GliderGuider Mar 2016 #44
So my husband emails me a link to this, says Bigmack Mar 2016 #28
Humans just don't do limits. GliderGuider Mar 2016 #29
Because we use our minds The2ndWheel Mar 2016 #34
Latest Discussions»Issue Forums»Environment & Energy»In Just 60 Years, Neolibe...»Reply #41