Israel/Palestine

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)

9. Grass didn't want anyone to have nukes as a weapon of any resort.

Sun Apr 19, 2015, 08:24 AM

Apr 2015

He didn't want Iran to have them either, or the U.S., or Russia, China or Germany.

It's no more virtuous for any one nation to have them than any other-even the U.S., which has always been just as likely to misuse them as any other. There is no such thing as a righteous use of a weapon of global destruction, and no way to fire off one nuke without setting off Armaggedon.

And again, Israel does not equal "the Jews", so please stop using that trope. Israel is simply one state and most of the world's Jewish population doesn't live there, or want to. It's not Nazi Germany, obviously, but it has just as great a potential for turning into a demagogic dictatorship as any other state born of an exclusivist nationalist movement. Nationalism, even in its most benign-seeming form, always carries the seed of fascism. How could it not?

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Highlight:

�Jew-baiter� and former SS member Gunter Grass dies [View all] shira Apr 2015 OP

From the Wik... R. Daneel Olivaw Apr 2015 #1

How on earth was he a �Jew-baiter�? Little Tich Apr 2015 #2

He criticized the Israeli government's treatment of Palestinians. Ken Burch Apr 2015 #3

Poor, shira. R. Daneel Olivaw Apr 2015 #4

See #5 below. n/t shira Apr 2015 #6

What makes u an expert on what is or isn't antisemitic? The ADL & Wiesenthal Center.... shira Apr 2015 #21

It's only antisemitic to attack or express prejudice against Jews-not to criticize the Israeli gov't Ken Burch Apr 2015 #60

His poem was an attack against Jews. shira Apr 2015 #74

Israel does not equal Jews. Ken Burch Apr 2015 #75

Tell that to the many, many supporters here of Gilad Atzmon, Helen Thomas, Richard Falk..... shira Apr 2015 #88

1) I've never defended Atzmon...what I said was that he was irrelevant. Ken Burch Apr 2015 #95

Atzmon is not irrelevant when influential people.... shira Apr 2015 #102

Medea Benjamin isn't an antisemite or a self-loathing Jew either. She's for peace. Ken Burch Apr 2015 #106

Medea Benjamin is w/o question an antisemite... shira Apr 2015 #111

She went to one conference. That's nothing. Ken Burch Apr 2015 #113

Benjamin never explained her motive for being there, or apologized for going.... shira Apr 2015 #116

Medea Benjamin is not a "hateful shit" Ken Burch Apr 2015 #119

If she was decent, she'd at least condemn shits like Ken O'Keefe & Alison Weir... shira Apr 2015 #123

I don't know who Ken O'Keefe even is, for the record. Ken Burch Apr 2015 #127

Then look him up. Medea was with him in Iran. And here's Benjamin on Helen Thomas.... shira Apr 2015 #131

Helen Thomas is DEAD. Why does she even still matter? Ken Burch Apr 2015 #132

It's important b/c not only is she antisemitic, her Israel hating fans who defend her... shira Apr 2015 #137

Ken, I'll remind you that you took issue with Grass 3 years ago shira Apr 2015 #24

And ADL and the Wiesenthal Center don't speak for all Jews. Ken Burch Apr 2015 #62

You took issue with Grass 3 years ago, but you're now pretending his poem.... shira Apr 2015 #89

Former SS members don't get to preach morality to Jews.... shira Apr 2015 #5

The issue is Israel having nuclear weapons, not "the Jews". Ken Burch Apr 2015 #7

No, the issue is that a Nazi says Jews cannot have a weapon of last resort.... shira Apr 2015 #8

Grass didn't want anyone to have nukes as a weapon of any resort. Ken Burch Apr 2015 #9

Grass only accused the Jewish state of wanting to annihilate.... shira Apr 2015 #10

I pointed you towards 3 Haaretz articles, all penned by Israelis.... shira Apr 2015 #11

The poem condemns the possible use of a nuclear first strike. Ken Burch Apr 2015 #12

There's no chance Israel preempts with a nuclear 1st strike shira Apr 2015 #19

This general silence on the facts, R. Daneel Olivaw Apr 2015 #34

Again, the ADL & Simon Wiesenthal Center say he's an antisemite shira Apr 2015 #38

Because Grass wrote a poem that slams Israel and Germany... R. Daneel Olivaw Apr 2015 #41

So wait. You think u know what antisemitism is better than the ADL or SWC? shira Apr 2015 #46

I believe that the word is used as a weapon whose blade has grown as dull as a butter knife. R. Daneel Olivaw Apr 2015 #49

They represent the most right-wing voices in the American Jewish community. Ken Burch Apr 2015 #61

No, they're respected by the Jewish mainstream as the leading voices.... shira Apr 2015 #70

That epithet has been used so much as to have lost meaning. R. Daneel Olivaw Apr 2015 #43

Almost all Jews are critical of Israel in some way. That doesn't make them antisemites shira Apr 2015 #51

The ones who are critical get demonized(by people like you)as "self-loathing Jews". Ken Burch Apr 2015 #53

No, EVERY Jew who knows anything about Israel is critical of Israel in some way.... shira Apr 2015 #55

So you admit that it's totally wrong to call Jewish critics of Israel "self-loathing Jews"? Ken Burch Apr 2015 #57

Jewish 'critics' like Max Blumenthal, Gilad Atzmon, Richard Falk, Medea Benjamin..... shira Apr 2015 #68

But I wasn't writing about Jews, shira. That's, again, your twist on things. R. Daneel Olivaw Apr 2015 #59

All Jews are critics of Israel. Not all Jews are labeled as antisemites. n/t shira Apr 2015 #72

On this board, you've never criticized anything the Israeli government has done. Ken Burch Apr 2015 #81

I don't criticize Israel on any board that allows hostile critics to vent their hatred shira Apr 2015 #91

Did you really just compare the I/P group on DU to Stormfront and JewWatch? Ken Burch Apr 2015 #98

Nope, but you've implied you're not all that disturbed.... shira Apr 2015 #105

Helen Thomas is dead and Medea Benjamin(who is Jewish) is not a Jew-hater and you know it. Ken Burch Apr 2015 #112

Do you have a problem with reading comprehension today? R. Daneel Olivaw Apr 2015 #83

No. Do you have a problem with basic logic and reasoning? shira Apr 2015 #92

criticizing the Israeli gov't in private is meaningless and doesn't count. Ken Burch Apr 2015 #122

You're clueless. All Jews criticize Israel. No one calls all Jews antisemites. n/t shira Apr 2015 #71

Once again, shira, I wasn't writing about Jews. That, again, is your twist on things. R. Daneel Olivaw Apr 2015 #82

You were writing about critics of Israel. All Jews happen to be critics of Israel.... shira Apr 2015 #90

Before you fall on your face again, I was not writing about "Jews". I was writing about critics of R. Daneel Olivaw Apr 2015 #93

Again? When you write about critics of Israel, are you forgetting that all Jews.... shira Apr 2015 #99

Jew, Jew, Jew, Jew...you're a broken record without much substance. R. Daneel Olivaw Apr 2015 #101

Aww, poor thing. You have no evidence whatsoever that "ALL" critics of Israel.... shira Apr 2015 #109

She may be conflating your posts and mine, Daneel. n/t. Ken Burch Apr 2015 #117

Not a mensa-level tactic... R. Daneel Olivaw Apr 2015 #125

But we all know that's impossible with Iran...or at least not worth risking. Ken Burch Apr 2015 #52

Let's start here with your problem... R. Daneel Olivaw Apr 2015 #14

That nazi hypocrite wanted Germany to come to grips with its Nazi past shira Apr 2015 #22

Was being drafted a crime to you or the fact that he has the ability to criticize? R. Daneel Olivaw Apr 2015 #28

Grass was an antisemitic hypocrite. Only Israel is a nuclear threat, not N.Korea, Pakistan.... shira Apr 2015 #30

Please point out his anti-Semitism. R. Daneel Olivaw Apr 2015 #32

The ADL and Simon Wiesenthal center said it's antisemitic. Here are links... shira Apr 2015 #36

Was he a nazi? He was a conscript. R. Daneel Olivaw Apr 2015 #64

He proved he was in 2012 with that poem. n/t shira Apr 2015 #77

Oh, poor you, now you're just making shit up to justify your shrill accusations. R. Daneel Olivaw Apr 2015 #84

Apparently, the ADL and SWC made shit up about Grass too. n/t shira Apr 2015 #94

That's their opinion, and a weak sauce one at that. Like I wrote earlier... R. Daneel Olivaw Apr 2015 #96

Amazing how you believe the vast majority of Jews use the charge of antisemitism.... shira Apr 2015 #103

If I had written that poem would you consider me an anti-Semite? Mind you R. Daneel Olivaw Apr 2015 #85

AFAIK you aren't a former Nazi who hid his past like Grass did.... shira Apr 2015 #104

No he didn't. There's nothing in that poem that equates to wanting a Judenrein world. Ken Burch Apr 2015 #108

He was too young to have done anything that mattered. Ken Burch Apr 2015 #54

A new low when we have so many DU'ers defending an unrepentant, antisemitic Nazi shira Apr 2015 #56

He spent his whole life repenting. His books were his repentance. Ken Burch Apr 2015 #58

Not enough, when he just couldn't contain his antisemitism anymore.... shira Apr 2015 #69

How is it antisemitic to say it would be just as wrong for Israel to launch a nuclear strike Ken Burch Apr 2015 #73

It's wrong b/c Israel will not launch a nuclear attack. That's anti-Jew libel. shira Apr 2015 #86

I've never defended Gilad Atzmon and you know it. Ken Burch Apr 2015 #100

When you say Atzmon's irrelevant & he's not, that's problematic shira Apr 2015 #107

You'd have a point if I'd said that Grass was infallible. Ken Burch Apr 2015 #110

Ken, you're wrong about Atzmon, Benjamin, and Helen Thomas. shira Apr 2015 #114

Medea Benjamin has nothing in common with Atzmon or Thomas. Ken Burch Apr 2015 #115

Then let's focus on Thomas. How upset are you with her, as an anti-racist..... shira Apr 2015 #118

She said an inflammatory thing. She lost her job and she's dead. Ken Burch Apr 2015 #120

But you cannot acknowledge that what she said was antisemitic. shira Apr 2015 #128

Helen Thomas was not on my "team"...I'm not ON anyone's "team". Ken Burch Apr 2015 #129

At least u now concede what Thomas said was bigoted and "on balance antisemitic" shira Apr 2015 #133

No I haven't made it impossible for people to be called out on antisemitism. Ken Burch Apr 2015 #136

There's so much wrong in that last post of yours. shira Apr 2015 #139

The European antisemitism that culminated in the Holocaust was a singular blight on history. Ken Burch Apr 2015 #142

I disagree with you. Little Tich Apr 2015 #13

The ADL & Simon Wiesenthal Center said his poem was antisemitic. n/t shira Apr 2015 #23

I'm sorry for the horrible cursing, but what you do is tasteless. Little Tich Apr 2015 #25

I can't fucking stand Nazis, nor any other Jew hating degenerates shira Apr 2015 #26

"Gunter Grass was a miserable Nazi until the day he died." R. Daneel Olivaw Apr 2015 #33

Unrepentant Nazi called antisemitic by ADL and Simon Wiesenthal Center shira Apr 2015 #37

Actually he came out about 9 years ago... R. Daneel Olivaw Apr 2015 #42

Did you read the OP? His secret past was about to go public. He came out.... shira Apr 2015 #44

Do you mean this? R. Daneel Olivaw Apr 2015 #50

None of the rest of us can stand Nazis either. Grass was a conscript at age 16 Ken Burch Apr 2015 #63

You hit the nail on the head, Mr. Burch. R. Daneel Olivaw Apr 2015 #65

Are you kidding? Jew-haters like Gilad Atzmon, Richard Falk.... shira Apr 2015 #76

Medea Benjamin does not hate Jews, and Helen Thomas is dead. Ken Burch Apr 2015 #79

My comments from 2012 - which I stand by now LeftishBrit Apr 2015 #15

I was curious, shira. How many dead children do you believe that Grass was responsible for vs R. Daneel Olivaw Apr 2015 #16

Hamas & their BDS-hole friends are responsible for children in Gaza... shira Apr 2015 #17

I'm not sure why you want to excuse the deeds of Bibi the baby killer...BUT R. Daneel Olivaw Apr 2015 #18

I'm pretty certain you're sure it's Hamas' fault & anyone encouraging Hamas shira Apr 2015 #20

Actually, killing Palestinians children was the responsibility of the IDF and Netanyahu, silly. R. Daneel Olivaw Apr 2015 #27

Wow...You couldn't agree that Hamas should've accepted the 1st ceasefire proposal shira Apr 2015 #29

The point is irrelevent considering that I was talking to you about Grass vs NuttyYahoo. R. Daneel Olivaw Apr 2015 #31

You brought up the Gaza war. You've ranted about Bibi the baby killer.... shira Apr 2015 #35

List all 10 of the cease fire offers that Hamas rejected during Protective Edge azurnoir Apr 2015 #39

It was 11 ceasefires they rejected or violated shira Apr 2015 #45

In each case the cease fire were mere hours most notable was the July 20 when Israel commited azurnoir Apr 2015 #67

Yeah, mere hours because Hamas violated them & wanted their war shira Apr 2015 #80

Did you read the MFA link you posted? the cease fires were humanitarian and meant to be hours long azurnoir Apr 2015 #130

And Hamas wouldn't even keep those. You're once again letting Hamas completely off the hook..... shira Apr 2015 #134

Israel refused a 10 year truce on July 16 2014 azurnoir Apr 2015 #135

Like I thought, you don't have a problem with Hamas' human shielding... shira Apr 2015 #138

are you confused? I ask because here you are on 4 seperate comments justifying Israels killing azurnoir Apr 2015 #140

No, on at least 4-5 occasions you have refused to assign any blame to Hamas.... shira Apr 2015 #141

No, shira, it was you who twisted this thread into Gaza. R. Daneel Olivaw Apr 2015 #40

You brought up Bibi and Gazan child deaths & now you're whining about it.... shira Apr 2015 #47

No, my poor fabricator, it was you... R. Daneel Olivaw Apr 2015 #48

What a shameful, gutter-level smear geek tragedy Apr 2015 #66

His smear about the Jewish state wanting to nuke Iran & kill its citizens.... shira Apr 2015 #78

Enjoy your grave dancing. nt geek tragedy Apr 2015 #87

Then why did Grass pretend Israel wanted to nuke Iran and annihilate its citizens? shira Apr 2015 #97

He meant the Israeli government, not every Jewish person in Israel. Ken Burch Apr 2015 #121

No one in Israel, aside from a few maniacs, believes Netanyahu is that insane. n/t shira Apr 2015 #124

They should be a bit less trusting of the guy. Ken Burch Apr 2015 #126