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William Seger

(10,812 posts)
69. Point by point
Fri Apr 5, 2013, 09:35 AM
Apr 2013

> a) you made two self-contradictory arguments that 1) witnesses can be wrong about where sounds come from and 2) most people heard shots from the TSBD area.

Say what? Those are not "contradictory arguments"; they're both facts. The fact that witnesses can be wrong about where gunshot sounds came from means that we cannot use the "ear-witnesses" to locate the source of shots, and the fact that the ear-witnesses disagree is just another reason why. We need more reliable evidence to locate the shooter(s).

We have convincing physical evidence that the two known shots that hit JFK and Connally came from behind; that they came from a rifle found in the TSBD; and that they were fired from the 6th floor "sniper's nest."

There is no convincing evidence for another shooter.

If you can actually disprove either of those assertions, then you will actually have something. Until then, you're just blowing smoke like Oliver Stone.

> b) I thought you were joking or being sarcastic by inferring the people may have been running up the knoll to retrieve their parked cars. I would think better of you if you were joking.

In the later movies included in that silly blackops video, yes, I do believe that's exactly what we are seeing. I would think better of you if you attempt an actual rebuttal.

> c) since the autopsy was handled so horrendously, no one really knows where bullets struck JFK.

That's one of the claims that led to the HSCA being established, so it was a major focus, but their findings were:

Since the Warren Commission completed its investigation, two other Government panels have subjected the X-rays and photographs taken during the autopsy on President Kennedy to examination by independent medical experts. A team of forensic pathologists appointed by Attorney general Ramsey Clark in 1968,(9) and a panel retained by the Commission on CIA Activities Within the United States (Rockefeller Commission) in 1975,(10) reached the same basic conclusion: the President was struck by two bullets from behind.
...
The forensic pathology panel {of the HSCA} concluded that President Kennedy was struck by two, and only two, bullets, each of which entered from the rear. 1 The panel further concluded that the President was struck by one bullet that entered in the upper right of the back and exited from the front of the throat, and one bullet that entered in the right rear of the head near the cowlick area and exited from the right side of the head, toward the front. This second bullet caused a massive wound to the President's head upon exit. There is no medical evidence that the President was struck by a bullet entering the front of the head,(19) and the possibility that a bullet could have struck the President and yet left no evidence is extremely remote.


> The backwards movement is obvious and visceral. No one sees that and thinks "oh he was obviously hit from behind" or "oh that is obviously the result of the jet effect which is happening this one time only in the history of the world". No, people see a body reacting to a shot striking from the front. That's why Life Magazine and the Warren Commission both felt they needed to reverse the frames when printing the sequence.

As the old saw goes, I can explain it to you but I can't understand if for you: When the Zapruder film is examined carefully and real physics are applied, it shows that the fatal shot came from behind, and it also shows that the back-and-to-the-left motion happens too late to be explained by momentum from the bullet. It just doesn't matter who or how many people don't understand why that's so or what misconceptions they have formed from a cursory examination and cartoon physics. But whether you understand it or not, the Zapruder film is completely consistent with all the other evidence that the fatal shot came from behind.

> By the way, I forgot to add d) to my three issues at 3PM Dallas time day of the assassination.

d)Dr Perry at Parkland Hospital said during a press conference that the president had suffered a wound of entrance in his throat


Given your apparent knowledge of the subject, I'm pretty sure you know that when he made that statement, he was unaware of the back wound, and that after discussing the back wound with Dr. Humes in Bethesda, Perry agreed that the throat wound was the exit wound. (Unlike certain JFK conspiracy hucksters, Perry apparently dismissed the possibility that both were entrance wounds caused by magic disappearing bullets.) I'd bet that you also know that the throat wound was right at a buttoned shirt collar and tied necktie, which just might explain why the wound might not have looked like a typical exit wound. But no, Perry's statement in the press conference is the story you like and you're sticking to it.

> As to the investigations:
> A couple of Dallas police officers went up to the picket fence area after the shots, and more police officers combed through the railway yard and parking lot, but once the shell casings were discovered shortly after 1 PM the Dallas police did nothing but focus on the TSBD as the sole source of shots.


Spin away, but they investigated those areas and found no evidence to indicate that there had been a shooter there. What exactly would you expect them to do to "focus" on that nothingness -- contemplate their navels?

> The FBI was told to look into all leads... for twenty-four hours. At that point Hoover wrote a memo declaring Oswald the sole assassin and field agents were instructed to stop any investigation not involving Oswald. In that 24 hours the FBI did very little, if anything, related to shots from the knoll area.

Sorry, I can't find any such memo, and I have to suspect that your appraisal of it might be a tad biased.

> The Warren Commission started from the premise that Oswald was the sole shooter and did everything in its power to downplay, suppress, and disappear any contradicting information.

Unspun: The Warren Commission didn't find any credible evidence of a second shooter. Never mind that over the last half-century, the conspiracy hucksters haven't found any credible evidence of a second shooter, either, because we can just blame it on the Commission for "disappearing" all the good stuff.

> The HSCA developed a lot of information pointing to a high level conspiracy and classified most of it, on its way to a weak conclusion that there was "probably" two shooters but the second guy missed and Oswald did it.

After the HSCA report, for the second time in my life I was a JFK conspiracy believer, myself. The acoustic evidence seemed to be scientific enough to count as credible evidence. But that debate has gone back and forth a couple of times now, and the latest study strongly indicates that the study the HSCA relied on in reaching the second-shooter conclusion (and hence the "probable conspiracy" conclusion) was incorrect.

> I pointed out four solid leads or reasons pointing to a shot from the knoll existing at 3PM Dallas time - including eyewitness, photographic,and expert - and they were all ignored and you don't seem to think anything is wrong with that picture.

Hmmm... that's not the way I remember it. Please post these "solid leads or reasons" again and we'll see if I missed any. If so, I'll be happy to give you some feedback.
Thanks for posting, I watched the first 9 videos from the links in your earlier posts. eomer Feb 2013 #1
I sort of see it, too... MrMickeysMom Feb 2013 #4
Introduction: Woman heard shot from grassy knoll William Seger Feb 2013 #2
Snark? MrMickeysMom Feb 2013 #3
"That's all I get from you is snark?" William Seger Feb 2013 #5
No, I read it... MrMickeysMom Feb 2013 #6
Uh-huh, "answers" and "honest discussion" and "dialog" William Seger Feb 2013 #11
Episode Two: John Armstrong speculates there were "two Oswalds" William Seger Feb 2013 #12
Episode Three: Bill Simpich speculates that Oswald was part of "false defector" program William Seger Feb 2013 #13
Episode Four: Joan Mellen speculates that Oswald was a CIA/FBI plant William Seger Feb 2013 #15
Episode Five: John Armstrong again, speculating about "two Oswalds" again William Seger Feb 2013 #16
No response from the OP yet? zappaman Mar 2013 #18
On posting the videos as they come out each week, and on your being blocked for it... eomer Feb 2013 #7
Appreciated, eomer... MrMickeysMom Feb 2013 #8
I followed the discussion and I thank you for having, by far, the more reasonable approach. NYC_SKP Feb 2013 #14
Thanks for posting and sorry for any grief you got from others. NYC_SKP Feb 2013 #9
Twas nothing... MrMickeysMom Feb 2013 #10
Will the OP be answering Seger's criticisms of the videos any time soon? zappaman Mar 2013 #17
It would appear that the poll speaks for who's more interested in the videos... MrMickeysMom Mar 2013 #19
So the answer is NO zappaman Mar 2013 #20
The answer is... MrMickeysMom Mar 2013 #21
!!! zappaman Mar 2013 #22
... MrMickeysMom Mar 2013 #23
I'm sorry you can't speak for yourself. zappaman Mar 2013 #24
They sure are... MrMickeysMom Mar 2013 #25
Seger's criticisms arguille Mar 2013 #26
I a interested in the way you addressed "c" MrMickeysMom Mar 2013 #27
One at a time: a) eyewitness reports of shot(s) from grassy knoll area William Seger Mar 2013 #28
reply to #28 arguille Mar 2013 #33
"Sorry. That does not add up." William Seger Mar 2013 #38
reply to #38 arguille Mar 2013 #43
Neither you nor Fiester have refuted what I'm saying about Zapruder William Seger Mar 2013 #46
BTW, here's a "painted over" Zapruder frame William Seger Mar 2013 #51
reply to #51 arguille Mar 2013 #52
Baloney. I DID respond to your three issues. William Seger Mar 2013 #58
reply to #58 arguille Mar 2013 #60
Timeout William Seger Mar 2013 #64
A vacation is what you needed at this point, Billy MrMickeysMom Mar 2013 #66
I'm back William Seger Apr 2013 #73
reply to #73 arguille Apr 2013 #74
I keep asking for one GOOD reason William Seger Apr 2013 #79
reply to #79 arguille Apr 2013 #82
Baloney William Seger Apr 2013 #85
reply to #85 arguille Apr 2013 #92
Sliced thin and piled high, it's still baloney William Seger Apr 2013 #93
reply to #93 arguille Apr 2013 #94
On and on William Seger Apr 2013 #95
reply to #95 arguille Apr 2013 #97
Stairway to delusion William Seger Apr 2013 #99
reply to #99 arguille Apr 2013 #100
Oh, I don't really mind arguing with a brick wall William Seger Apr 2013 #108
reply to #108 arguille Apr 2013 #110
Credibility issue William Seger Apr 2013 #115
reply to #115 arguille Apr 2013 #117
Two words: Bull. Shit. William Seger Apr 2013 #118
reply to #118 arguille Apr 2013 #119
But I DID read it, "arguille" William Seger Apr 2013 #121
reply to #121 arguille Apr 2013 #124
If you're just going to keep repeating yourself William Seger Apr 2013 #127
reply to #127 arguille Apr 2013 #129
"What's that about likely or unlikely?" William Seger Apr 2013 #133
reply to #133 arguille Apr 2013 #135
By the way, this... William Seger Apr 2013 #131
reply to #131 arguille Apr 2013 #136
Well, that's the problem MrMickeysMom Apr 2013 #84
Clicking on your posts, hoping that maybe this time there will be something William Seger Apr 2013 #86
Point by point William Seger Apr 2013 #69
reply to post #69 arguille Apr 2013 #76
In other words, speculation and spin are all you've got William Seger Apr 2013 #80
"...but the single-bullet theory remains the best explanation of the facts." MrMickeysMom Apr 2013 #87
I'm sure arguille appreciates the cheerleading, but... William Seger Apr 2013 #88
You wish a fight over what you should wish to seek... MrMickeysMom Apr 2013 #89
I've been begging for any credible FACTS that refute the WC conclusions William Seger Apr 2013 #90
Reply to #80 arguille Apr 2013 #91
No offense, of course, but so what? William Seger Apr 2013 #96
reply to #96 arguille Apr 2013 #98
Good grief William Seger Apr 2013 #112
reply to #112 arguille Apr 2013 #113
More baloney? No thanks William Seger Apr 2013 #114
reply to #114 arguille Apr 2013 #116
Here we go 'round the mulberry bush William Seger Apr 2013 #122
reply to #122 arguille Apr 2013 #130
Thanks for the video William Seger Apr 2013 #132
reply to #132 arguille Apr 2013 #137
Pointless repetition William Seger Apr 2013 #140
reply to #140 arguille Apr 2013 #142
"What fact?" William Seger Apr 2013 #144
reply to #144 arguille Apr 2013 #147
Yeaaaaaah, THAT'S the ticket William Seger Apr 2013 #148
reply to #148 arguille Apr 2013 #149
But it IS bullshit, isn't it William Seger Apr 2013 #151
reply to #151 arguille Apr 2013 #153
LMAO William Seger Apr 2013 #156
reply to #156 arguille Apr 2013 #158
In other words, you have absolutely no sound evidence or logical reason William Seger Apr 2013 #160
reply to #160 arguille Apr 2013 #161
'Round the barn again William Seger Apr 2013 #162
reply to #162 arguille Apr 2013 #165
How about this: William Seger Apr 2013 #167
b) Fletcher Prouty worked at the Pentagon William Seger Mar 2013 #29
reply to #29 arguille Mar 2013 #34
And again, my point was... William Seger Mar 2013 #40
reply to #40 arguille Mar 2013 #44
Yes, they lie a lot William Seger Mar 2013 #48
reply to #48 arguille Mar 2013 #53
Well, if you think you can prove THAT, then... William Seger Mar 2013 #59
reply to #59 arguille Mar 2013 #61
Which just goes to show... William Seger Apr 2013 #70
reply to #70 arguille Apr 2013 #77
c) Seger dismisses information on Oswald's history and background as unsubstantial William Seger Mar 2013 #30
reply to #30 arguille Mar 2013 #35
"But there was a false defector program." William Seger Mar 2013 #39
reply to #39 arguille Mar 2013 #45
"illegal operations can be understood as including false defectors" William Seger Mar 2013 #50
reply to #50 arguille Mar 2013 #54
Baloney. Here's a link to the minutes of that meeting William Seger Mar 2013 #57
reply to #57 arguille Mar 2013 #62
"*IF* that were true and it ever came out and could be established" William Seger Apr 2013 #71
reply to #71 arguille Apr 2013 #75
Actually, what I'm claiming is... William Seger Apr 2013 #83
also to #71 arguille Apr 2013 #78
The minutes of the first Commission meeting, and I provided the link (n/t) William Seger Apr 2013 #81
d) Mexico City William Seger Mar 2013 #31
reply to #31 arguille Mar 2013 #36
"the provable fact that Oswald was framed" William Seger Mar 2013 #41
e) spooky one-note music. William Seger Mar 2013 #32
reply to #32 arguille Mar 2013 #37
Sez you William Seger Mar 2013 #42
reply to #42 arguille Mar 2013 #47
But I'm giving you every opportunity to change my mind William Seger Mar 2013 #49
reply to #49 arguille Mar 2013 #55
Baloney. It's not a "rhetorical device" to demand FACT-based DEDUCTIVE reasoning William Seger Mar 2013 #56
reply to #56 arguille Mar 2013 #63
Well now... MrMickeysMom Mar 2013 #68
Prove any one of them, then William Seger Apr 2013 #72
Made it to 1:38 in first video Riftaxe Mar 2013 #65
Wow!.... MrMickeysMom Mar 2013 #67
In the intro video, they say his head moved back when he was shot, ZombieHorde Apr 2013 #101
Shhhhh! zappaman Apr 2013 #102
I have only watched the first first video and half of the second, so they might address that point. ZombieHorde Apr 2013 #103
You should check this out as well zappaman Apr 2013 #104
That does look like his head moved forward to me. ZombieHorde Apr 2013 #105
reply to ZombieHorde arguille Apr 2013 #106
"It remains a point of contention five decades later." zappaman Apr 2013 #107
It does remain a point of contention... MrMickeysMom Apr 2013 #109
Well, I suppose the earth being round remains a point of contention since some believe it is flat... zappaman Apr 2013 #111
head movement and blood spatter arguille Apr 2013 #120
In other words, Fiester has NO CLUE the 2.5" forward head-snap even happened William Seger Apr 2013 #123
reply to #123 arguille Apr 2013 #125
"move minutely into the force" is NOT a 2.5" head-snap William Seger Apr 2013 #126
reply to #126 arguille Apr 2013 #128
"swell or move minutely into the force" is NOT a 2.5" forward head-snap William Seger Apr 2013 #134
reply to #134 arguille Apr 2013 #138
Yep, that's exactly the same thing Fiester was talking about William Seger Apr 2013 #139
reply to #139 arguille Apr 2013 #141
What's refuted is your bizarre interpretation of "contemporary ballistic science" William Seger Apr 2013 #143
reply to #143 arguille Apr 2013 #150
You just keep digging your hole deeper and deeper William Seger Apr 2013 #152
Reply to #152 arguille Apr 2013 #154
I really don't understand why you keep responding if that's the best you can do William Seger Apr 2013 #155
reply to #155 arguille Apr 2013 #157
... William Seger Apr 2013 #159
"Ballistics & Forensic Experts on the JFK Head Shot" William Seger Apr 2013 #163
reply to #163 arguille Apr 2013 #164
No, this is the ticket: William Seger Apr 2013 #166
BTW, Re: Fiester as an "expert" William Seger Apr 2013 #168
"Seger refutes contemporary ballistic science" with another video William Seger Apr 2013 #146
And by the way.... William Seger Apr 2013 #145
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