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John718

(1 post)
79. not a 'Harvard study', by two men who have nothing to do with Harvard
Sat Jan 12, 2013, 03:02 PM
Jan 2013

I read this paper after a pro-gun friend of mine said I should read it...so I did, and followed up many of the sources (I wonder how many people on this thread have done that?). DanTex is correct in saying that this is not a 'Harvard study' in any meaningful sense; it was clearly not peer reviewed, and neither of the writers had or have anything to do with Harvard. Both work for libertarian-leaning 'think tanks': Mauser for the Fraser Institute, and Kates for the Independent Institute. Both of these groups have also published papers 'questioning' the effects of second hand smoke (funded by tobacco companies) and human-driven climate change (funded by oil, lumber and energy companies), and are far from non-partisan. If anyone wanted to read research by actual Harvard professors, there are plenty of papers on the Harvard School of Public Health's website: http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/ .. most of which generally directly contradict Kates and Mauser's 'research'.


Even on my first reading, I found several easily verified half-truths, cherry picked references, shoddy comparisons, and glaring inconsistencies in this paper. The stat about Luxembourg's murder rate of 9.01 for 2002 jumped out right away to me as an obvious anomaly, if nothing else. Kates and Mauser refer to this figure in two tables and a few times in the text, so it was clearly an important point for them. So I downloaded the Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics papers cited in the footnote (the only reference for this figure) from 1997-2004. This annual report is really only about Canadian homicide statistics, and each year gives one small chart of other countries. In all the years I looked into, Luxembourg is only listed in one year, 2002, and indeed there is the 9.01 figure.

One would now assume that any competent and honest researcher would see that this was, at the very least, an unusually high figure for a country like Luxembourg. One might consider checking this number against another source for global homicide data, like say, the UN, which collects and publishes crime data for most of the world's countries annually. The UN Office on Drugs and Crime report for 2002 gives Luxembourg a murder rate of .9 per 100,000 residents. This figure is fully consistent with the preceding and following years for Luxembourg and with other available data sources, and is also consistent with the general low levels of homicide in Western Europe. This also supports what DanTex suggests above, that the number referenced by Kates and Mauser may be just a decimal point error in the JURISTAT table.

Again, one would hope that any researcher would follow up on this obviously odd figure, then find conflicting figures that are consistent with the country's recent history and it's region, and would then not use this statistic! Instead, Kates and Mauser highlight this number several times, and, like DanTex says, really base a substantial part of their argument in those sections on this 'fact'. Kates and Mauser even offer a tepid preemptive concession hidden in the footnotes (a tactic they use frequently throughout the paper), saying that the cited Canadian report "gives no explanation of why it selects the various nations whose homicide statistics it covers. Also without explanation, the nations covered differ from year to year".

To any critical reader, the quoted comment from Kates and Mauser above, and an examination of the source itself and other sources for related data, immediately begs the question, "So why use these stats, when consistent international homicide figures were and are readily and easily available?" A further look at the tables which use the Luxembourg figure shows even more inconsistencies. The only reference given for Table 2, which compares murder rates and handgun ownership rates, gives only the Canadian report as a reference. But nowhere in those cited reports, in any of the years cited, is any homicide stat given for Belarus. So, where did this data come from? A figure like this without any reference (or even worse, an incorrect reference) would never make it past any real peer review.

... and it goes on from there...Kates and Mauser rely heavily on comparisons to Russia in these tables, which they call an industrialized nation in the first pages, as if Russia (particularly in 2002) is ever considered a developed economy on par with Western Europe, the US, Canada, Australia, Japan by any typical standard (IMF/ UN/ World Bank reports, GDP per capita etc), not to mention the massive upheaval in Russia and the region during the post-Soviet era of the late 80s and 90s. They say handguns are 'allowed' in Poland, without any sort of explanation or details as to what that means exactly....while in reality Poland before and after this per have had quite tight gun regulations in general, and tighter regulations on handguns. The whole premise of this table, which lists handguns as either 'banned' or 'allowed' without any decent details of what the actual laws are in those countries, is a typical example of the broad stroke, no-depth, skewed and misleading comparisons used throughout Kates and Mauser's paper. They leave out comparisons to the US whenever convenient, such as in this table, which would obviously tilt the data against the authors' intended message. There are more examples I can illustrate if you like...


Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

Time to ban rural gunz... ileus Jun 2012 #1
The OP says "MAY" Hangingon Jun 2012 #2
Yea, who cares how many teens kill themselves with readily available guns, as long as you keep yours Hoyt Jun 2012 #4
Why should I be punished because of the actions of other people? Atypical Liberal Jun 2012 #34
Oh, your poor, pitiful gun plight is so tough. Hoyt Jun 2012 #39
So that means you can not answer the question? oneshooter Jun 2012 #40
I note that you did not answer the question. Atypical Liberal Jun 2012 #42
If you look at the rural suicide rates of other countries gejohnston Jun 2012 #45
This is a scumbag anti-gun appeal!!! Hells Liberal Jun 2012 #3
Guns enable suicide. Agree with other aspects of your post, but the same right wingers who back Hoyt Jun 2012 #5
So do broken beer bottles Hells Liberal Jun 2012 #6
I will when you guys quit using false imagery of "thugs" as an excuse to strap a gun or two Hoyt Jun 2012 #8
So says the one of the most prolific users... Clames Jun 2012 #9
At least my imagery doesn't spur me to run out and buy more guns and ammo. Hoyt Jun 2012 #11
Your imagery has you running down the street Spoonman Jun 2012 #17
Hey, I walk slowly down the street without worry, or weapons to comfort me. Try it, if you can. Hoyt Jun 2012 #22
You would shit your pants half way down the block I work on all day, every day! Spoonman Jun 2012 #29
I thought his imagery had him confronting lawful CCW permit holders... Clames Jun 2012 #28
No your imagery just spurs you to spit on the Consitution and the rights it enumerates. Atypical Liberal Jun 2012 #35
The ass wipe that tried to rob me wasn't wearing a suit and tie! Spoonman Jun 2012 #16
Did he shoot you? If not, and I hope not, a gun would not have made things better. Hoyt Jun 2012 #23
My gun did make things better! Spoonman Jun 2012 #24
Great. He probably just shot the next person in the head before saying anything. Hoyt Jun 2012 #25
And if he did "shoot the next person in the head" Spoonman Jun 2012 #27
More folks that arm up, the more desperate criminals will become. They'll arm up and shoot sooner. Hoyt Jun 2012 #30
"More folks that arm up, the more desperate criminals will become." Spoonman Jun 2012 #31
But we aren't seeing that. Atypical Liberal Jun 2012 #36
If you have a chip on your solder, your iron isn't hot enough. crayfish Jun 2012 #61
They deserved it because of so much rude totering going on. If only criminals had gunz... ileus Jun 2012 #33
I would have absolutely no compunction over shooting someone trying to take my wallet. crayfish Jun 2012 #43
That's really fucked up. Starboard Tack Jun 2012 #46
Why do you trust criminals so much? hack89 Jun 2012 #47
Did I say you should give anyone your wallet? I think not. Starboard Tack Jun 2012 #49
Yet you support laws that would take away that means of self defense hack89 Jun 2012 #50
given that losing the wallet could cause great harm to his family gejohnston Jun 2012 #48
Oh, come on GE. Put him on the street? Starboard Tack Jun 2012 #51
A lot of working class gejohnston Jun 2012 #52
So what are you saying? Starboard Tack Jun 2012 #54
no, but gejohnston Jun 2012 #55
We don't have too many Walmarts out here, thankfully. Starboard Tack Jun 2012 #56
the average meth head doesn't really think that hard gejohnston Jun 2012 #57
Absolutely. You can defend your stuff your way, I'll defend mine my way. crayfish Jun 2012 #59
Maybe because I love life, especially my own Starboard Tack Jun 2012 #62
Post removed Post removed Jun 2012 #63
You need to move on Awipe. Alert on me, I don't care. Hoyt Jun 2012 #64
I wouldn't dare, I want everyone to see what and who you are. crayfish Jun 2012 #65
We know exactly what you are. Hoyt Jun 2012 #67
Care to elaborate? crayfish Jun 2012 #68
Nope, I questioned your attitude, use of words like "effete," and hope to kill in post above. Hoyt Jun 2012 #69
My attitude is none of your fucking business. You can object to my facts or my opinion, though crayfish Jun 2012 #70
I did. Hoyt Jun 2012 #71
+ 100000000000000000000x100000000000000 Hoyt Jun 2012 #66
The person stealing or robbing should consider if the contents of the wallet are worth dieing for. Remmah2 Jun 2012 #75
I have no problem with you or anyone being a gun owner Starboard Tack Jun 2012 #58
Good point, I've wondered about that when I hear somebody say "white pride" or "black pride". crayfish Jun 2012 #60
Do you think parents are proud of their kids because of an accident of birth? Starboard Tack Jun 2012 #78
In that case, a great solution... NewMoonTherian Jun 2012 #10
Sorry, I don't buy that. Guns are a health, budget, moral, etc., problem. Hoyt Jun 2012 #12
Then again. Remmah2 Jun 2012 #76
So do bridges, high roofs, Valium, and sharp objects. cherokeeprogressive Jun 2012 #41
Of the people I've known who have comitted/sttempted suicide only one by gun. Remmah2 Jun 2012 #77
The Article Recommends Locking Up Your Guns AndyTiedye Jun 2012 #18
People who commit suicide don't want to die. rrneck Jun 2012 #7
True, quite true. jeepnstein Jun 2012 #13
I don't think it's about demonizing so much as about education and awareness petronius Jun 2012 #15
I support these people in their right to die Bill O.Rights Jun 2012 #14
plus in the long run it's better for the earth. ileus Jun 2012 #21
So we're claiming guns make people want to commit suicide? ileus Jun 2012 #19
I believe that easy access to the weapon could easily cause more ladjf Jun 2012 #20
Maybe you should work to get a law passed to that effect. jeepnstein Jun 2012 #26
I wasn't suggesting the that all suicidal people could be forced to ladjf Jun 2012 #32
it seems to be higher in rural areas across the board gejohnston Jun 2012 #37
Many studies have shown that gun availability contributes to suicide rates. DanTex Jun 2012 #38
which are also rural areas gejohnston Jun 2012 #44
In contrast, alternate Harvard study. Remmah2 Jun 2012 #72
LOL. That's not a "Harvard Study". DanTex Jun 2012 #73
Do you know what a barrel shroud is? nt Remmah2 Jun 2012 #74
not a 'Harvard study', by two men who have nothing to do with Harvard John718 Jan 2013 #79
A lot of my family lives in rural areas. Dr_Scholl Jun 2012 #53
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