Gun Control & RKBA

jmg257

(11,996 posts)

163. Madison rejected the PA minority terms of a broader purpose restriction...

Thu Jul 25, 2013, 11:34 PM

Jul 2013

'..Right to bear arms for defense of themselves and their own state, Or the US, or for the purpose of killing game; no laws shall be passed disarming them, &c.'

And used the more typical version he introduced concerning...'rkba not infringed; well regulated militias are the Best security of a free country, those scruplous of bearing arms shall not be compelled to render military duty, &c.'

Madison was careful about avoiding absolute restrictions that could be doubted.

He certainly could have intended an individual right, especially in his proposal - though bearing arms is still associated with militias, the 'being the best security' was associated with religious exemptions, not given as the reason for the rkba. Obviously the article passed specifcally is written with the primary purpose of securing the militias.

Edit history

Please sign in to view edit histories.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

205 replies

= new reply since forum marked as read

Highlight:

The meaning of the Second Amendment (One Perspective) [View all] discntnt_irny_srcsm Jun 2013 OP

This fellow didn't have clue about modern 21st century military weaponry, eh? rdharma Jun 2013 #1

How about 21st century communications networks? friendly_iconoclast Jun 2013 #8

I think that would come under the 1st Amendment........ rdharma Jun 2013 #11

yes, I see - Tuesday Afternoon Jun 2013 #18

This bong fellow must have really PWNED you! rdharma Jun 2013 #20

You should know!! CokeMachine Jun 2013 #42

Maybe not but... discntnt_irny_srcsm Jun 2013 #21

I'm sure that has special meaning for you! rdharma Jun 2013 #26

"Errrrp derrrp!" You have acid reflux? Eleanors38 Jun 2013 #28

Funny! Those PJ-wearing guerillas always had more than small arms........ rdharma Jun 2013 #32

you are confusing the VC with the gejohnston Jun 2013 #34

NO. I'm not confusing the VC with the NVA! rdharma Jun 2013 #36

You didn't major in military history did you? gejohnston Jun 2013 #40

Yeah! Like Bison bombers naval cruisers and helicopters & everything! Eleanors38 Jun 2013 #38

Oh! I've got to save this one before the edit! rdharma Jun 2013 #39

So says the king of editing. CokeMachine Jun 2013 #43

Riiiiiight! rdharma Jun 2013 #47

Glad you agree!! nt CokeMachine Jun 2013 #48

OH? rdharma Jun 2013 #49

I really like... discntnt_irny_srcsm Jun 2013 #54

Is he really hanging his hat on Bison-52s? That's it? Eleanors38 Jun 2013 #78

What in the world... discntnt_irny_srcsm Jun 2013 #80

You're quite welcome! nt Eleanors38 Jun 2013 #77

The Girandoni Repeating Rifle appeared in the US prior to the ratification. AtheistCrusader Jun 2013 #85

Also the puckle gun. beevul Jun 2013 #87

Well, it's clear that Justice Story thought so, anyway. Deep13 Jun 2013 #2

but there was a national marine corps gejohnston Jun 2013 #4

Marines meant soldiers who worked... Deep13 Jun 2013 #7

Never call a marine "soldier". gejohnston Jun 2013 #14

Some have been proud to be called soldiers of the sea. AnotherMcIntosh Jun 2013 #57

I only know of the modern ones, they generally had the view. gejohnston Jun 2013 #58

The guy who played Scottie in the original Star Trek took six MG rounds on Juno Beach. discntnt_irny_srcsm Jun 2013 #59

yeah. gejohnston Jun 2013 #60

most fortuitous discntnt_irny_srcsm Jun 2013 #61

Eddy Albert was the real deal at Tarawa. It's good to see that he had a successful film career. AnotherMcIntosh Jun 2013 #62

In the 18th c. the USMC had none of its present day glory. Deep13 Jun 2013 #66

Owning a gun was a right... discntnt_irny_srcsm Jun 2013 #72

amusing side note... Deep13 Jun 2013 #67

kind of like the high school my kids went to gejohnston Jun 2013 #83

1776 - first amphibious raid at Fort Nassau, Bahamas. They captured the Governor and took 100 guns. AnotherMcIntosh Jun 2013 #56

Legal experience and credentials from two hundred years ago Auggie Jun 2013 #3

Post removed Post removed Jul 2013 #150

This message was self-deleted by its author Tuesday Afternoon Jun 2013 #5

I've got to say..... the 3rd Amendment has kept the redbacks from quartering troops at my house! rdharma Jun 2013 #6

This message was self-deleted by its author Tuesday Afternoon Jun 2013 #9

Apparently it's being honored (honoured).......... rdharma Jun 2013 #10

This message was self-deleted by its author Tuesday Afternoon Jun 2013 #12

Court Jesters! rdharma Jun 2013 #13

This message was self-deleted by its author Tuesday Afternoon Jun 2013 #15

You know what? I can almost hear the little bells on your hat ringing! rdharma Jun 2013 #16

you must be smoking some really good shit, dude. Peace Out. Tuesday Afternoon Jun 2013 #17

Does that mean no encore? rdharma Jun 2013 #19

Would that be in his bongbong? nt CokeMachine Jun 2013 #44

What's up with all your "self deletes"? rdharma Jun 2013 #81

This message was self-deleted by its author Tuesday Afternoon Jun 2013 #82

half right, half wrong on joseph story jimmy the one Jun 2013 #22

It was refering to unorganized militias as in gejohnston Jun 2013 #23

no legs to stand on jimmy the one Jun 2013 #25

don't think so gejohnston Jun 2013 #29

"It's obvious he's speaking of the militia" discntnt_irny_srcsm Jun 2013 #24

Why? Isn't that already made clear in the 2nd Amendment? nt rdharma Jun 2013 #27

No. The right referenced in 2A is that of the people, not of the militia. Eleanors38 Jun 2013 #30

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, ........ rdharma Jun 2013 #33

old hats jimmy the one Jun 2013 #37

I'm afraid not. beevul Jun 2013 #63

Saul Cornell too jimmy the one Jun 2013 #31

diet Koch gejohnston Jun 2013 #35

Funny discntnt_irny_srcsm Jun 2013 #84

If you are going to cite authorities, you are out-numbered. Eleanors38 Jun 2013 #41

hocus pocus jimmy the one Jun 2013 #46

number four gejohnston Jun 2013 #50

LOL! Eleanors38 Jun 2013 #52

Poof-f-f-f... Eleanors38 Jun 2013 #51

sharp & inept jimmy the one Jun 2013 #55

Is President Obama a "pro gun quack"? He thinks it is an individual right. nt hack89 Jun 2013 #70

That lot *never* answer that one, do they? friendly_iconoclast Jun 2013 #74

repuable? gejohnston Jun 2013 #53

Yawn!! CokeMachine Jun 2013 #45

more weird reasoning from gunfolk jimmy the one Jun 2013 #64

In what world... discntnt_irny_srcsm Jun 2013 #69

incomprehension abounds jimmy the one Jun 2013 #73

nice dodge discntnt_irny_srcsm Jun 2013 #75

Indeed, it is as if you cannot read the language. hansberrym Jul 2013 #117

Good grief, try reading. beevul Jun 2013 #76

Careful - Congress was NOT given power to create the militias - only to organize/regulate jmg257 Jun 2013 #79

Thats a good point. beevul Jun 2013 #86

benjamin oliver & more jimmy the one Jun 2013 #88

Just some BS discntnt_irny_srcsm Jun 2013 #89

semantics jimmy the one Jun 2013 #92

Maybe one day... discntnt_irny_srcsm Jun 2013 #93

Quit feeding the trolls in the basement!! CokeMachine Jun 2013 #94

You bring up an interesting & curious point... jmg257 Jun 2013 #95

I began this aspect... discntnt_irny_srcsm Jun 2013 #98

bear arms in bear country jimmy the one Jun 2013 #99

Don't take this the wrong way but... discntnt_irny_srcsm Jun 2013 #100

and Keep arms in bear country (west of the Blue Ridge) hansberrym Jul 2013 #118

"keep" arms in bear country hansberrym Jul 2013 #119

Uh huh. beevul Jun 2013 #90

Without the right to life, and thus the ability to defend it no other rights matter. ileus Jun 2013 #65

There probably aren't too many people like that. Most societies have very jmg257 Jun 2013 #71

Never underestimate the importance of the regulated militias. And of course the necessity to remove jmg257 Jun 2013 #68

are you saying we should ditch emipre and MIC gejohnston Jun 2013 #91

your light is fluorescent jimmy the one Jun 2013 #96

Just a poem... discntnt_irny_srcsm Jun 2013 #97

rkba polls jimmy the one Jun 2013 #101

We the people spoke... discntnt_irny_srcsm Jun 2013 #104

yet another pandora's box jimmy the one Jun 2013 #109

Times change, Fashions change,... DWC Jun 2013 #102

Equal responsibilities??? Human Nature??? jmg257 Jun 2013 #103

Please enlighten me DWC Jun 2013 #105

You did read what I wrote, right? jmg257 Jun 2013 #106

Yes, I read what you wrote - attentively DWC Jun 2013 #112

damn the militia jimmy the one Jun 2013 #113

Your high volume of verbiage DWC Jun 2013 #115

#1 & 2, in this regards, are answered in what I wrote. jmg257 Jul 2013 #116

'the right to bear arms!' jimmy the one Jun 2013 #107

were there any liberals or Dems on the court? gejohnston Jun 2013 #108

no cigar jimmy the one Jun 2013 #110

I have seen some pretty pro corporate opionions on the part of Stevens gejohnston Jun 2013 #111

Do you understand and believe in Democracy? discntnt_irny_srcsm Jun 2013 #114

all hans on deck jimmy the one Jul 2013 #120

You could not be more funny if you tried hansberrym Jul 2013 #121

all hans go back below decks jimmy the one Jul 2013 #122

That's more like it. hansberrym Jul 2013 #123

rubbing it in jimmy the one Jul 2013 #124

Rub some more, of course PA's is closer. hansberrym Jul 2013 #125

Good try!! CokeMachine Jul 2013 #126

Yawn again CokeMachine Jul 2013 #127

Ex attorney & professor research 2Tocqueville Jul 2013 #128

Let's discuss a few things discntnt_irny_srcsm Jul 2013 #129

This is a strange take on a portion.... jmg257 Jul 2013 #130

Agree on your first point, but not the second hansberrym Jul 2013 #132

Yep - "to keep" certainly makes it more iffy. jmg257 Jul 2013 #137

But what supports the "only" interpretation? hansberrym Jul 2013 #138

And the debates in congress. No mention of any use for bearing arms jmg257 Jul 2013 #140

And no mention that the RKBA was understoood as exclusively for militia service hansberrym Jul 2013 #142

A reasonable person concludes that the primary reason for the second amendment jmg257 Jul 2013 #147

That is all well and good, but your argument is that the militia is the ONLY purpose to hansberrym Jul 2013 #156

When did I make that argument?? Nt jmg257 Jul 2013 #165

See my post # 168 n/t hansberrym Jul 2013 #169

The idea that without restrictions "bear arms" must mean hansberrym Jul 2013 #144

"Restrictions" were on govt, not the terms used. jmg257 Jul 2013 #146

The facts always show the primary importance of the militias, and that they jmg257 Jul 2013 #148

Madison rejected PA Minority? hansberrym Jul 2013 #158

Madison rejected the PA minority terms of a broader purpose restriction... jmg257 Jul 2013 #163

The idea that without restrictions "bear arms" must mean hansberrym Jul 2013 #167

Depending of Course on the meaning of bear arms in the second. jmg257 Jul 2013 #170

...the right of the people to keep and serve in the militia, shall not be infringed ? hansberrym Jul 2013 #173

Ok...a number of people will say the meaning of to keep and bear arms jmg257 Jul 2013 #174

People will say anything, but what proof can those people offer? hansberrym Jul 2013 #176

What proof can either side offer? Numerous examples support both. jmg257 Jul 2013 #177

The problem is that the Heller dissent insisted on an rkba exclusively for hansberrym Jul 2013 #181

Agreed. No exclusivity(?) to the terms. jmg257 Jul 2013 #182

Not sure what you mean "to the terms" -do you mean keeping and bearing arms? hansberrym Jul 2013 #184

Of course A1/S8 talks of the people keeping arms..."organizing arming & disciplining the militias", jmg257 Jul 2013 #185

Scott: "nor can an equivalent be demanded" hansberrym Jul 2013 #188

Thanks - I didn't know there was a fund involved in getting someone to take your place. jmg257 Jul 2013 #189

was this thing typical? hansberrym Jul 2013 #194

While we are at it... jmg257 Jul 2013 #131

free state hansberrym Jul 2013 #133

2ndAmendment Mythology Speaks jimmy the one Jul 2013 #134

Take your meds hansberrym Jul 2013 #139

Which states were not "free"? hansberrym Jul 2013 #143

free state, CW, or virginia, or all of above jimmy the one Jul 2013 #151

Forgive me, I forgot that you cannot read. hansberrym Jul 2013 #154

tench coxe brings up the militia, why? jimmy the one Jul 2013 #135

Why do you continue to conflate proposals from the states hansberrym Jul 2013 #141

whoosh jimmy the one Jul 2013 #149

just lame hansberrym Jul 2013 #153

gun guru & guncite back me up jimmy the one Jul 2013 #161

Where else indeed hansberrym Jul 2013 #166

I'd vote for State being one of the 13 states in the union, and MAYBE also the Republic. jmg257 Jul 2013 #152

well, which states were not free? hansberrym Jul 2013 #155

States that were "not free" were those without a republican form of govt. jmg257 Jul 2013 #157

Yes, same for all in that it describes the character of the state, country. or government. hansberrym Jul 2013 #159

From our posts today, I am even more sure that state means 1 of 13 or 50... jmg257 Jul 2013 #160

Your contentions thus far: hansberrym Jul 2013 #162

I don't think I ever said rkba was limited to service in a state militia. jmg257 Jul 2013 #164

OIC, it was those other guys hansberrym Jul 2013 #168

Why would any govt "compel all its citizens to bear arms"? jmg257 Jul 2013 #171

Why do you ask? (again) hansberrym Jul 2013 #172

Because bearing arms was often used to refer, specifically, to a militia role jmg257 Jul 2013 #175

And what of Keep arms? And what of those instances where persons spoke of the right to bear arms hansberrym Jul 2013 #178

See #177 please...And ill respond below to the rest. Nt jmg257 Jul 2013 #179

It is clear to me there were other uses of bear arms and keep arms. jmg257 Jul 2013 #180

If you do not care about the main point of contention in Heller, why bother? hansberrym Jul 2013 #183

Why bother? Cause I think it is interesting as hell. jmg257 Jul 2013 #186

for your reading pleasure hansberrym Jul 2013 #190

Thanks (Again)! I'll check out Aymette, and some others too! jmg257 Jul 2013 #191

unmitigated gall re silveira jimmy the one Jul 2013 #192

Thanks, Jim, for the heads up... nt jmg257 Jul 2013 #193

poor Jimmy, was Breyer also lying when he said... hansberrym Jul 2013 #195

more lies jimmy the one Jul 2013 #196

yeah, but they are all yours! hansberrym Jul 2013 #197

to arms jimmy the one Jul 2013 #136

poor rebuttal jimmy the one Jul 2013 #187

priceless hansberrym Jul 2013 #198

poor lies...you are losing your touch. hansberrym Jul 2013 #199

Missing the obvious discntnt_irny_srcsm Jul 2013 #200

cruel irony, a reason to be discontented jimmy the one Jul 2013 #201

Yes mythology! discntnt_irny_srcsm Jul 2013 #202

jimmy doesn't just miss the obvious, he pretends it is not there hansberrym Jul 2013 #203

delusionary jimmy the one Jul 2013 #204

that about sums your arguments up -delusionary hansberrym Jul 2013 #205

Message auto-removed Name removed Jul 2013 #145