Gun Control & RKBA

krispos42

(49,445 posts)

231. Your analogy cannot be used here.

Tue Feb 10, 2015, 10:55 PM

Feb 2015

Gun-related deaths are, by a huge margin, either the result of suicide or the result of homicide. A tiny fraction of gun-related deaths a year are due to genuine product failures such as mechanical malfunction or failure. A dropped gun discharges, perhaps, or a gun slam-fires, or something equally rare.

The overwhelming majority of gun-related deaths are either from being used as a tool of suicide, or a tool of homicide. It is not a design or manufacturing flaw that causes the depressed or the terminally ill to wrap their lips around a gun and pull the trigger, or the callous criminal to gun down a store clerk for the contents of a cash register.

Conversely, crib deaths are due to very small children having fatal accidents due to some design flaw in the crib. Baby murders are not being enabled because cribs are the preferred choice for infanticide, nor are toddlers committing suicide with cribs.

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Gun control for, "wealthy, white individuals who wish to be safe" Wow, just frickin' wow! [View all] DonP Feb 2015 OP

lordy....looks what they are repealing!!.. riversedge Feb 2015 #1

They still had a ban on weapons in parks? Veganstein Feb 2015 #2

ugh VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #3

I know, but it isn't her fault. Veganstein Feb 2015 #4

I wasn't agreeing with you.... VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #5

Aww. Well that's fine too. Veganstein Feb 2015 #6

It was about your user name and position... VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #7

Incongruent? Sez who? Straw Man Feb 2015 #8

Says common sense... VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #9

You just don't get it, do you. Straw Man Feb 2015 #11

I once thought of creating a website Veganstein Feb 2015 #12

Yeah....opposed to killing of animals for food... VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #13

I don't support the killing of humans unless they are trying to kill other humans. Veganstein Feb 2015 #16

What were guns created for again? VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #19

Which shows that a tiny tiny minority of legal gun owners will ever kill someone hack89 Feb 2015 #23

excuse me? What were guns created for again? VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #265

300 million guns, in the hands of 80 million plus people... beevul Feb 2015 #24

right...and 75% of the children dying of gunshot wounds....Live with them! VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #266

Everyone "lives with them". beevul Feb 2015 #285

Well you could argue guns were created for both killing animals and humans, but American humans NoJusticeNoPeace Feb 2015 #26

Such nonsense. beevul Feb 2015 #28

and sherrifs in the old west.....made gunslingers turn over their guns in town VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #270

Thats your proposal? beevul Feb 2015 #283

not true either gejohnston Feb 2015 #286

Destroying LIFE.... VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #267

We know - you don't like guns. NaturalHigh Feb 2015 #27

No I don't like dead babies with holes in them... VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #268

That really has nothing to do with what I posted... NaturalHigh Feb 2015 #274

Ah, the old shtick .... Straw Man Feb 2015 #18

No the old... VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #271

So, what are you doing about it? blueridge3210 Feb 2015 #277

Please verify. Straw Man Feb 2015 #288

Oh, I disagree. Veganstein Feb 2015 #10

but "unnecessary" (your word) harm to humans...you have no problem with THAT! VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #14

Exactly the opposite. Veganstein Feb 2015 #15

The statistics belie your position... VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #20

Baby cribs? Straw Man Feb 2015 #21

Again, I disagree. Veganstein Feb 2015 #22

Of course you do....its hypocritical... VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #29

I cited an annual study by an agency of the federal government Veganstein Feb 2015 #31

and I gave you homicide and chilrens deaths from gunshot statistics from the CDC...SO???? VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #32

It isn't a fact. The numbers we have discussed show exactly the opposite. Veganstein Feb 2015 #34

It IS a fact...how the hell can you even say that???? VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #35

the truth.. VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #36

actually, gejohnston Feb 2015 #43

I didn't cite Kleck and Gertz. I cited the Bureau of Justice Statistics. Veganstein Feb 2015 #46

practice what you preach jimmy the one Feb 2015 #63

and THAT is where it came from... VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #79

There is no coherent response to those facts. It destroys their entire self defence foundation. Fred Sanders Feb 2015 #77

furthermore...why its bullshit! VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #37

is simply mathematically impossible. gejohnston Feb 2015 #47

what nerve from J jimmy the one Feb 2015 #65

We'll look forward to hearing from you next time... beevul Feb 2015 #66

notice he said could be gejohnston Feb 2015 #68

What percentage of "children younger than 20" sleep in cribs? beevul Feb 2015 #25

WTF...it wasnt ABOUT cribs! VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #30

Looks like your attempt to Lovejoy the conversation isn't going too well... friendly_iconoclast Feb 2015 #33

Its going very well actually..... VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #39

You brought up cribs. Straw Man Feb 2015 #38

M.E.T.A.P.H.O.R.!!!! VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #40

I think A.N.A.L.O.G.Y. is the more appropriate term. Straw Man Feb 2015 #41

No bad taste here....I was the one that said it....I think I know what I said and meant... VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #42

Keep wriggling. Straw Man Feb 2015 #44

No reason to wriggle.... VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #45

Yet you persist in trying. Straw Man Feb 2015 #48

Don't have to try...I have truth and facts and figures on my side... VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #49

Yes, you do, and no, you don't. You really don't. Straw Man Feb 2015 #50

Yes I do....the irony exists.... VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #51

Yes, in your mind. Straw Man Feb 2015 #52

Not just in my mind....according to the CDC too! VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #53

Reality and the CDC. Straw Man Feb 2015 #54

Oh really? Is that your position... VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #55

I'm not denying anything. Straw Man Feb 2015 #57

Oh and by the way....^^^^ that is more bullshit!...Its NOT the CDC... VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #56

Bullshit? There's that word again. Straw Man Feb 2015 #58

bullshit....because it is bovinian FECES! VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #69

Changing the subject, are we? Straw Man Feb 2015 #101

the subject remains the same as when I started....YOU changed the subject my friend VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #106

Really? YOU brought up the CDC. Straw Man Feb 2015 #107

Some? beevul Feb 2015 #59

Are children dying or not? VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #70

Are we talking about "children" or are we talking about... beevul Feb 2015 #78

we are talking about the irony of being Vegan while also a gungeneer! VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #80

Then stay on topic. beevul Feb 2015 #137

Alcohol kills 4300 underaged drinkers every year. That's 3.75 Sandy Hooks a week. Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2015 #113

How little you understand. beevul Feb 2015 #60

How little YOU are willing to face facts....Sensible Gun control is coming....just like Winter is on VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #71

I'm not the one that sees only those two alternatives. beevul Feb 2015 #73

what other alternative is there? Sensible gun control IS coming....take it to the bank! VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #74

Education, for one. beevul Feb 2015 #76

I support gun ownership being treated exactly like car ownership... VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #82

Really? discntnt_irny_srcsm Feb 2015 #84

You need to have your operation of said car tested regularly! VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #86

No you don't discntnt_irny_srcsm Feb 2015 #89

Yes I do! VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #91

How's that "exactly like car ownership" thing looking? N/T discntnt_irny_srcsm Feb 2015 #93

did I say that cars are intended to destroy life? VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #95

Letting go that mistake you wrote about... discntnt_irny_srcsm Feb 2015 #98

I've made no mistakes.... VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #99

Not much fun are you? discntnt_irny_srcsm Feb 2015 #100

I'm shocked. beevul Feb 2015 #90

I didn't say I was opposed to BGC did I? VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #92

You said "I support gun ownership being treated exactly like car ownership..." beevul Feb 2015 #97

People like you and me need a time machine, if we had one and it worked NoJusticeNoPeace Feb 2015 #81

I don't need anything....I have facts on my side... VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #83

I know, I was just trying to give you some love on it. NoJusticeNoPeace Feb 2015 #87

I don't need your love.... VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #94

Ignoring? Straw Man Feb 2015 #103

What do I need to ignore? VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #105

More unfounded slurs. Straw Man Feb 2015 #108

its not a slur...its the truth! VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #109

It's hysterical ranting. Straw Man Feb 2015 #110

Have a nice night discntnt_irny_srcsm Feb 2015 #115

Not upset.... VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #116

Whether or not you believe me... discntnt_irny_srcsm Feb 2015 #117

Your analogy cannot be used here. krispos42 Feb 2015 #231

WRONG! VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #232

Yes, yes... "Oh please, won't somebody think of the children???" krispos42 Feb 2015 #233

Right....because you just proved my point... VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #234

You lose krispos42 Feb 2015 #243

Gun lover but non meat eater is a conflict, for sure. Fred Sanders Feb 2015 #72

Thank you! VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #84

It is not odd if you take leave of all common sense and logic and facts. Then it sounds dandy. Fred Sanders Feb 2015 #88

very true! VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #96

Really? Straw Man Feb 2015 #102

Funny....people in other countries are not as afraid for their defense as some gun toting Americans VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #112

Do you have cite for your "2/3" stat? Straw Man Feb 2015 #118

Oh lets play shall we? VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #120

OK -- Where's the 2/3 figure you cited? Straw Man Feb 2015 #124

Actually, that isn't scientific literature gejohnston Feb 2015 #125

and here is the kicker VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #122

Finally, the 2/3! Straw Man Feb 2015 #126

so what??? 65% are dying in their homes....by the guns their VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #145

Gun safety education could lower those numbers,with essentially no resistance from the pro-gun side. beevul Feb 2015 #151

Nope....but I also support strong gun control measures! VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #154

I'm all for it being taught in high school, just like drivers ED. beevul Feb 2015 #156

I don't want to PAY for that! VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #157

I guess firearms safety training isn't as important to you as you led us to believe. beevul Feb 2015 #160

It SHOULD be important enough for you to own them....that YOU pay for it! VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #162

I've taken firearms safety training. beevul Feb 2015 #166

Why shouldn't I? VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #264

You say "So what?" You want to use numbers ... Straw Man Feb 2015 #262

Yea I say so what... VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #263

Non sequiturs and absurd ranting. Straw Man Feb 2015 #287

Everytown, seriously? gejohnston Feb 2015 #129

Ted NUGENT is all YOURS....you can't hide him from your ranks! VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #144

no, Nugent isn't mine gejohnston Feb 2015 #279

and then there is this... VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #123

all of which he pulled out of his ass gejohnston Feb 2015 #128

You keep telling yourself that....I trust LOD more than i do YOU! VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #139

"children under the age of 20" beevul Feb 2015 #138

Last I checked....you have to be 21 to buy alcohol! VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #140

Make sure you explain that to those registering for selective service, mkay? beevul Feb 2015 #148

so it wasn't about 20 yr olds dying in their homes...it was about those under 14...try not to be VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #182

I'm not the one calling adults "babies". Thats your argument. beevul Feb 2015 #185

I didn't and neither did that study.... VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #186

Then answer the question. How many babies die to firearms. N/T beevul Feb 2015 #188

Lets check the executive summary of the document and where they got data... VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #150

Why? Few gun owners are hunters. hack89 Feb 2015 #104

Are they vegans? VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #111

This thread was not about vegans ... Straw Man Feb 2015 #119

this conversation was.... VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #121

Ah ... Straw Man Feb 2015 #127

that isn't hypocrisy gejohnston Feb 2015 #130

a vegan gungeoneer IS hypocrisy....he said himself he was concerned about VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #141

No more a hypoctit than a gun control zealot that can't stay on topic... beevul Feb 2015 #149

YOU damn right I am a Gun Control Zealot....and proud of it VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #152

Now you're violating our sop. N/T beevul Feb 2015 #153

awwww.... VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #155

Not being able to take the heat, is better than not being able to behave... beevul Feb 2015 #158

awww....my fee fees! VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #159

Says the poster that doesn't want to pay for firearms safety training. beevul Feb 2015 #161

You damn skippy I don't.....YOU want guns YOU pay for IT.... VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #163

Says you. beevul Feb 2015 #165

yeah says me....I already paid for YOUR kids education...I have no children VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #167

You don't have to pay for me to keep anything. beevul Feb 2015 #169

then do something about the babies dying! VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #171

Love to, but unreasonable absolutist gun control zealots oppose universal gun safety training. beevul Feb 2015 #172

Yeah....no sweat right???...this is PEW by the way VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #173

What...we don't have gun control already? beevul Feb 2015 #176

Yeah I do....and I just posted two different polls....that show the opposite of what Pew said... VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #179

We don't have gun control now? beevul Feb 2015 #180

Apparently not....babies are still dying... VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #181

How many babies are dieing? beevul Feb 2015 #183

Under 14 yrs old...and YES babies ARE dying! VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #184

Under 14 years old is a baby now? beevul Feb 2015 #187

Yes....do you have a 14 yr old? VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #189

I had two of them. beevul Feb 2015 #192

How about the face of this one....shot in the head VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #196

For the nth time, how many babies are dieing? N/T beevul Feb 2015 #197

and lets check Politifact.. VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #198

That says children, not babies. N/t beevul Feb 2015 #200

since when are children okay to die from gunshot wounds? VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #201

Who said it was ok? beevul Feb 2015 #204

YOU DID! VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #205

Nonsense. beevul Feb 2015 #209

Not nonsense.... VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #213

To use in public, yes. beevul Feb 2015 #215

So babies shot in their homes is okay??? VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #216

So you still beat your dog? N/T beevul Feb 2015 #218

Well if I did...doubt he would have lived to the age of 16 yrs... VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #220

Gun control pusher talking point. beevul Feb 2015 #221

Unequivocally....as are MOST Democrats... VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #222

Other than the 1/3 of Democrats that are gun owners. beevul Feb 2015 #225

and STILL most believe in Gun Control... VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #269

Everyone that actively posts on DU including this group, believe in some sort of gun control. beevul Feb 2015 #284

and more VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #190

and a 3 yr old.....is that old enough for you to be comfortable with it? VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #191

and another VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #193

How many do you need to start to feel icky? VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #194

I wont feel "icky" about things I did not perpetrate. Why should I? beevul Feb 2015 #195

but YOU don't want to see that situation under control.... VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #199

Says the poster that opposes universal gun safety training. beevul Feb 2015 #202

I oppose it in schools yes.... VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #203

Of course you do. beevul Feb 2015 #206

No it isn't....lived my entire life....even as a female...without one! VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #207

ok, you've crossed the line. beevul Feb 2015 #210

Well children dying doesn't seem to bother you....yet THAT does... VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #211

Its ceased to be about anything but your bad behavior, at this point. beevul Feb 2015 #212

Oh bad "behavior" bothers you....but not dead babies? VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #214

Your bad behavior makes impossible, any debate. beevul Feb 2015 #217

You mean my argument makes YOU uncomfortable! VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #219

Thats the point. You aren't making any argument. beevul Feb 2015 #223

My argument is...Babies are dying.... VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #224

I don't have any "blue steel". beevul Feb 2015 #226

whatever it is....you have one... VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #227

Teddy bears aren't so good at killing the coyotes that want to eat my dogs. beevul Feb 2015 #228

Oh yeah....Coyotes are why we have so many guns in America....right! VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #230

There are "so many" guns because people want them. beevul Feb 2015 #237

and if people want a Sawwed off shotgun...or a rocket fired grenade launcher... VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #239

Both are legal to own. beevul Feb 2015 #240

Not if the barrel is too short... VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #241

Oh yes, they can be owned. Legally. beevul Feb 2015 #242

Right...he was REGULATED!!!! VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #244

Do you think another kid has died, which education would have prevented? N/T beevul Feb 2015 #245

Well I know if fewer people had guns.... VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #246

Take it up with the people pulling the triggers. beevul Feb 2015 #249

Have you ever met a gun owner that admitted they weren't "responsible" VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #252

Have you ever met a "reasonable" gun control proponent that admitted they weren't reasonable? beevul Feb 2015 #254

Huh? That doesn't even make sense? VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #255

It makes perfect sense to everyone but you. beevul Feb 2015 #258

"Just wanting something" is not a good enough reason to own something that DESTROYS LIFE!" beevul Feb 2015 #247

In Canada, gejohnston Feb 2015 #281

and.....I stand against this... VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #208

and I see you VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #177

Bullshit. This is not a safe haven Group for gun lovers only. You only wish it were. nt Electric Monk Feb 2015 #229

You're confused about which group you're posting in. beevul Feb 2015 #235

You're wrong again. Here's the GC &RKBA SOP that VanillaRhapsody was *not* violating. Electric Monk Feb 2015 #236

How many posts would you like me to link to where no attempt at discussion was made eh? beevul Feb 2015 #238

Why would being a vegan preclude one from punching holes in pieces of paper? hack89 Feb 2015 #133

That would be because there is no logic. blueridge3210 Feb 2015 #134

A "VEGAN" is much different than a vegetarian...AND VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #143

Again with the false equivalency blueridge3210 Feb 2015 #168

No....but a person who IS a V.E.G.A.N. and concerned with the "unnecessary" killing of animals VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #170

You can't even get that right. beevul Feb 2015 #175

You don't find dead children from gunshot wounds "unnecessary"? VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #248

Absolutely I do. beevul Feb 2015 #251

Thanks for agreeing that we need stronger Gun Control! VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #253

You'll get nothing and like it... beevul Feb 2015 #256

Awww did I hurt your feelings....did you have to hold your weapon closer to your heart when I said VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #257

Like I said, and you've given more evidence of... beevul Feb 2015 #259

Agreement with an outcome, does not mean agreement with methodology. N/T beevul Feb 2015 #261

and VEGANS do care what OTHER people are doing....they don't even use animal products! VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #250

None of which contradicts, or even touches on, anything I said in the post you responded to. N/T beevul Feb 2015 #260

Just like he said....he is a vegan concerned about "the unnecessary killing of animals" VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #142

You are putting words in his mouth hack89 Feb 2015 #146

THAT is exactly what he SAID! VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #147

So every gun owner supports killing babies hack89 Feb 2015 #174

Remember, you're dealing with a poster that opposes universal gun safety training. beevul Feb 2015 #178

75% of them in the industrialized world live here... VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #272

So if we don't give up our guns we support killing babies? hack89 Feb 2015 #275

If yuo don't support Sensible Gun Regulation...Yes you do! VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #289

So what is sensible gun regulation? hack89 Feb 2015 #291

Whatever it takes so that fewer people have them! VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #292

Or here is another set of ideas... VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #293

All but number 2 are reasonable hack89 Feb 2015 #295

they are ALL Reasonable...and MOST people agree with them VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #296

I own AR15s for competitive target shooting hack89 Feb 2015 #300

Sure you do! VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #301

Ok. Bye. Nt hack89 Feb 2015 #304

Yeah....LOL! VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #305

Ok. Nt hack89 Feb 2015 #306

besides....if you cannot hit a target with one of those VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #303

Then why are you arguing with the one person in this thread that DOES support VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #297

Because you are insulting, immature and rude hack89 Feb 2015 #298

tough shit....babies are dying! VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #299

No. All you are doing is making yourself seem morally superior hack89 Feb 2015 #302

But Hack, Shes winning hearts and minds. beevul Feb 2015 #309

are you for banning alcohol Duckhunter935 Feb 2015 #307

Or listen to THIS guy... VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #294

the industrialized world gejohnston Feb 2015 #280

No it isn't that means ones not already bombed into the StoneAge by wars etc. VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #290

you slept through history didn't you? gejohnston Feb 2015 #308

Rapists are free moral beings. Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2015 #114

Thanks. My morning chuckle! Do you engage in debate with Flat Earthers? Fred Sanders Feb 2015 #135

You consider yourself analogous to a flat-earther? Interesting. Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2015 #136

This is typical. virginia mountainman Feb 2015 #17

It is quite possible that the very rich would love to see citizens disarmed. ... spin Feb 2015 #310

who got the applause? jimmy the one Feb 2015 #61

We all lay awake nights worrying about your opinion of us DonP Feb 2015 #62

apoplectic rant jimmy the one Feb 2015 #64

Nope, most of our Dems here do a pretty good job with gun rights. DonP Feb 2015 #67

You are right...Most Democrats DO support Sensible Gun Regulation... VanillaRhapsody Feb 2015 #273

Yup, thanks to Dems we now have 50 state concealed carry DonP Feb 2015 #276

nutty thinking on shall issue jimmy the one Feb 2015 #278

Another pointless D'uh from Jimmy the Zero DonP Feb 2015 #282

They insist they are true liberals, but there is no evidence of it. Who else requires no evidence? Fred Sanders Feb 2015 #75

So, you're the arbiter of what a true liberal is? GGJohn Feb 2015 #131

... GGJohn Feb 2015 #132

"Weapons charges" bluestateguy Feb 2015 #164