Gun Control & RKBA

gejohnston

(17,502 posts)

76. your argument completely falls apart

Mon Dec 19, 2011, 02:30 PM

Dec 2011

in the seventh paragraph. You seem to think that the hyperbole of some propagandist is taken seriously by most (outside of DU, do you actually know any pro gunners?) of us? Outside of a tiny naive fringe, that is not true. That is certainly not true of us at DU and you know that. It has been pointed out to you that most of us are well traveled and have actually been to these countries. It seems that you have to cling on to a cardboard stereotype to support your ideas. In short, your last three paragraphs are as insulting as they are stupid. That is the problem of depending on mostly partisan sources for news and information. You get propaganda. True when the facts serves their purpose, but lies when the truth conflicts with ideology. That is as true with Media Matters as it is with Faux.
As far as gun laws and crime goes:
UK's crime did not drop after they passed their gun laws. Therefore, I fail to see where their crime rate has anything to do with gun laws. I would not call their laws rational or reasonable.
Same with Canada. Did their handgun crime drop when they started licensing and registration in 1934? Machine gun crime in 1952 (registration, but no licensing, which made their machine gun controls laxer than ours) Or 1977 when required banned further ownership and required licensing for the existing ones?
Here is where you switch to "there are multiple reasons besides gun laws" Well no shit. That is part of what we have been pointing out. It is all about history and culture and gun laws or gun ownership has nothing to do with it.
If, as many anti gunners claim, that gun laws are the primary reason, then why do they cherry pick only wealthy countries in Europe? Then why would not that also apply to non wealthy countries? Why would UK's gun laws keep Brits safe (even though they were safe before the laws) then why doesn't that also apply to Jamaica with similar laws? What level of wealth and its distribution does a country need before it counts?
Even within the United States, DC blames Virginia's laws. Who does USVI and Puerto Rico blame? They both have "rational gun laws". Straw purchasers in Florida who drive their amphibious cars? USVI's murder rate is not only worst in the US, it is among the worst in the world. It's gun laws are someplace between Canada and UK. Not the case with British VI. Next compare El Paso with lax gun laws and neighbor Cuidad Juarez with very strict gun laws. The disparity is also huge.

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How do you rank second amendment rights? [View all] digonswine Dec 2011 OP

You're likely referring to my post. We_Have_A_Problem Dec 2011 #1

No--I was not referring to your post-- digonswine Dec 2011 #5

Fair enough.... We_Have_A_Problem Dec 2011 #7

The idea that you can support your right to marry, etc-- digonswine Dec 2011 #9

How exactly do you think we gained ours as a nation? We_Have_A_Problem Dec 2011 #11

Are you saying that we can exert our will-- digonswine Dec 2011 #12

Like it or not...yes. We_Have_A_Problem Dec 2011 #14

I have not noticed- digonswine Dec 2011 #17

Then you're not paying attention. We_Have_A_Problem Dec 2011 #18

I am not certain- digonswine Dec 2011 #23

Why should public officials have any better protection than the average Citizen? PavePusher Dec 2011 #25

Are you saying that the president should NOT have a better security detail than I should? digonswine Dec 2011 #30

I'm saying (admittedly a bit hyperbolically) that the pres has a very large and tight security detal PavePusher Dec 2011 #32

Post removed Post removed Dec 2011 #24

Because right now-and all the lessons of history- digonswine Dec 2011 #31

I think it's one of a number of reasons. PavePusher Dec 2011 #33

We are no longer fighting the war for independence-- digonswine Dec 2011 #19

You are only half correct. PavePusher Dec 2011 #27

The War of Independence wasn't so much an event DissedByBush Dec 2011 #36

I can't say that all rights are equal; I just don't know... SteveW Dec 2011 #2

Good post-- digonswine Dec 2011 #15

You might find the idea of single issue voters nuts.. MicaelS Dec 2011 #26

This is nuts- digonswine Dec 2011 #28

You're right. The Libyans had it all wrong. PavePusher Dec 2011 #29

Oh puleeze fightthegoodfightnow Dec 2011 #38

Please drop a line to the Taliban, they seem to have missed a memo. PavePusher Dec 2011 #41

Don't forget the North Vietnamese either, they didn't know they couldn;t win. ntxt DonP Dec 2011 #43

Thanks for Proving My Point fightthegoodfightnow Dec 2011 #49

And yet they tie up 150K troops of the best trained, equiped and led military in history. PavePusher Dec 2011 #52

You want to overthrow with guns fightthegoodfightnow Dec 2011 #53

history lesson gejohnston Dec 2011 #56

I refer you back to the last sentance of my post. n/t PavePusher Dec 2011 #67

They are leaving in droves to form the Illusionist Party Starboard Tack Dec 2011 #77

Thanks for the complement... SteveW Dec 2011 #68

I like the positioning of the BOR MicaelS Dec 2011 #3

me too. Tuesday Afternoon Dec 2011 #4

I do not have a problem with bearing arms-- digonswine Dec 2011 #20

It's OK, but why is it very important? Starboard Tack Dec 2011 #78

define police state gejohnston Dec 2011 #79

In France it is a right to own, but illegal to bear. Starboard Tack Dec 2011 #96

Lets look at your list a little closer shall we? We_Have_A_Problem Dec 2011 #80

Sure. No cameras in this country. Maybe not where you live. Starboard Tack Dec 2011 #94

You don't get it do you? We_Have_A_Problem Dec 2011 #98

+1000 (n/t) spin Dec 2011 #13

I think the BoR should have been prefaced with "In no particular order..." n/t DissedByBush Dec 2011 #37

So You Like The BOR Positioning, Do You? Paladin Dec 2011 #48

One is stated in the BoR, one is implied DissedByBush Dec 2011 #6

It may indeed be pointless- digonswine Dec 2011 #8

I have a hard time ranking rights DissedByBush Dec 2011 #10

Most important michreject Dec 2011 #16

I disagree as I explained here: TPaine7 Dec 2011 #21

interesting point. Tuesday Afternoon Dec 2011 #22

At the end of a continuum of force. nt rrneck Dec 2011 #34

I'd rank second amendment rights as being the most important. Pacafishmate Dec 2011 #35

How many times have you been shot at in this country? Hoyt Dec 2011 #40

I rank second amendment rights right down there with state's rights . . . . . to discriminate. Hoyt Dec 2011 #39

When you start picking and choosing Civil Rights... PavePusher Dec 2011 #42

I wish you guys would learn the distinction between Civil Rights and Civil Liberties. Hoyt Dec 2011 #46

Bill of Rights. Constitutional Right. PavePusher Dec 2011 #47

But not a "civil right." So stop trying to hitch your poor pitiful gun plight to that movement. Hoyt Dec 2011 #50

So, none of the Bill of Rights is a "civil" Right? PavePusher Dec 2011 #54

Sadly, Civil Rights came much later than the Constitution -- not in the "Bill of Rights." Hoyt Dec 2011 #71

Sadly, Civil Rights came much later than the Constitution gejohnston Dec 2011 #72

What, on your say-so? Snort. n/t PavePusher Dec 2011 #73

Civil liberties are one's core rights - they stand above civil rights nt hack89 Dec 2011 #63

All Civil Rights are equal and mutually supporting. PavePusher Dec 2011 #44

You have to stay alive before you can exercise any other right. ileus Dec 2011 #45

Gun ownership is not a civil right. DanTex Dec 2011 #51

Well Said fightthegoodfightnow Dec 2011 #55

individual right gejohnston Dec 2011 #57

Nicely Put, DanTex. Paladin Dec 2011 #58

Well said. AlinPA Dec 2011 #59

You either know better or you should TPaine7 Dec 2011 #60

Well, 2A was in fact intended to prevent the... DanTex Dec 2011 #65

You either know better or you should TPaine7 Dec 2011 #74

Well, I'm glad you came out and flatly denied that 2A was intended to prevent the... DanTex Dec 2011 #75

your argument completely falls apart gejohnston Dec 2011 #76

I'll grant that you personally are not prone to hyperbole and extremism on the second amendment. DanTex Dec 2011 #97

In order to preserve the well regulated militia, the Second Amendment forbad the government TPaine7 Dec 2011 #81

Wow, you guys really can't stray even an inch from the gunner talking points, can you! DanTex Dec 2011 #89

See post 88. On second thought, your "philosophy" was just too funny to leave alone. Bye now. TPaine7 Dec 2011 #90

this has what to do with me? gejohnston Dec 2011 #91

I'm aware that you have traveled and are familiar with a lot of different... DanTex Dec 2011 #93

Thats a hell of an assumption. We_Have_A_Problem Dec 2011 #99

Yeah, I've travelled to Europe and Canada and other countires too. Multiple times. TPaine7 Dec 2011 #95

"Philosophy" or "the most important point to me" TPaine7 Dec 2011 #88

Ahh, logical ineptitude in all it's glory. Bravo! DanTex Dec 2011 #92

"Red Dawn fantasies notwithstanding" ellisonz Dec 2011 #83

Condescension and insults We_Have_A_Problem Dec 2011 #84

I think it's more an attempt at humor. ellisonz Dec 2011 #85

And like your attempt at an argument... We_Have_A_Problem Dec 2011 #86

Whatever you say... ellisonz Dec 2011 #87

So every right enumerated in the BOR is an individual right except the 2nd? hack89 Dec 2011 #64

Your analogies suck. PavePusher Dec 2011 #66

Your argument hinges on an "obsolete" outlook... SteveW Dec 2011 #69

Occupy the Gungeon. ellisonz Dec 2011 #82

No enumerated/protected rights should be given more weight over other enumerated/protected rights. OneTenthofOnePercent Dec 2011 #61

The scond amendment 41mag Dec 2011 #62

And Arizona had to follow the hoary, hairy behind of Vermont! SteveW Dec 2011 #70