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ellisonz

(27,711 posts)
21. I suppose the question is then...
Fri Feb 24, 2012, 05:56 PM
Feb 2012

...if you think there is a use of for guns that is not the conditioning thereof. It's about the militarization of society - and this is hardly a new theme in the writings and thoughts of philosophers. Most people would agree that we still live yet, in a society, where the use of violence is promoted both in practice and in thought. The OP has actually done an incredible job of contradicting himself in regards to this argument, but really it is quite simple.

And the shoemaker was not allowed by us to be husbandman, or a weaver, a builder — in order that we might have our shoes well made; but to him and to every other worker was assigned one work for which he was by nature fitted, and at that he was to continue working all his life long and at no other; he was not to let opportunities slip, and then he would become a good workman.

Now nothing can be more important than that the work of a soldier should be well done. But is war an art so easily acquired that a man may be a warrior who is also a husbandman, or shoemaker, or other artisan; although no one in the world would be a good dice or draught player who merely took up the game as a recreation, and had not from his earliest years devoted himself to this and nothing else?

No tools will make a man a skilled workman, or master of defence, nor be of any use to him who has not learned how to handle them, and has never bestowed any attention upon them. How then will he who takes up a shield or other implement of war become a good fighter all in a day, whether with heavy-armed or any other kind of troops?
Yes, he [Glaucon] said, the tools which would teach men their own use would be beyond price.

Plato, The Republic, Book II.


I find the argument that denies that such training occurs to be rather narrow-sighted in its consideration. It's all about the metaphysics.
Not everyone! atreides1 Feb 2012 #1
what do think I am? a Jarhead? Tuesday Afternoon Feb 2012 #2
I do enjoy punching paper, burf Feb 2012 #3
A. there isn't an "everyone". B. In many cases, it's not secret, but overt. saras Feb 2012 #4
Good post n/t Atypical Liberal Feb 2012 #8
When I practice with my carry weapon on a silhouette target... spin Feb 2012 #16
Not at all. murielm99 Feb 2012 #5
When I go target shooting, of course I'm thinking and speaking openly about violence! slackmaster Feb 2012 #6
When I was shooting tanks I was thinking about chasing women and getting high. era veteran Feb 2012 #7
It's pretty well known baser toters want to kill... ileus Feb 2012 #9
Only when I'm shooting reloaded depleted uranium bullets. Remmah2 Feb 2012 #10
All we need is the soundtrack burf Feb 2012 #11
That wasn't exactly my argument... ellisonz Feb 2012 #12
Wrong. Atypical Liberal Feb 2012 #14
The mind works in interesting ways... ellisonz Feb 2012 #17
Only one function eh? ileus Feb 2012 #23
You are assuming people cannot have different thoughts at different points in time. Atypical Liberal Feb 2012 #24
I'm assuming it leads to the same end - militarism. n/t ellisonz Feb 2012 #27
you understand about that word "assume" Tuesday Afternoon Feb 2012 #31
So are the Olympic games in shooting and archery and fencing leading to militarism? Atypical Liberal Feb 2012 #33
Ah, you assume rl6214 Feb 2012 #35
Based on a tremendous amount of evidence. ellisonz Feb 2012 #42
When I pick up a weapon -- CokeMachine Feb 2012 #59
Firearms can be lethal... spin Feb 2012 #34
"...my argument was that it conditions them to accept and participate in violence." Glassunion Feb 2012 #19
I suppose the question is then... ellisonz Feb 2012 #21
Sometimes metaphysics has nothing to do with anything. Sometimes it is just physics... Glassunion Feb 2012 #25
"accurately path a projectile over great distances fascinated him" ellisonz Feb 2012 #30
Assuming that everyone who shoots projectiles is thinking about violence... Atypical Liberal Feb 2012 #36
Very accurate comparison. (n/t) spin Feb 2012 #39
You obviously would never appreciate how difficult accurate shooting at long range is... spin Feb 2012 #38
What can I say... ellisonz Feb 2012 #41
I can see that... spin Feb 2012 #43
Yes I do... ellisonz Feb 2012 #51
Are you against these sports? Atypical Liberal Feb 2012 #54
Of course you realize our Constitution explicitly endorses militarism. Atypical Liberal Feb 2012 #63
Give it up. You are talking out your ass. n/t PavePusher Feb 2012 #44
To say using weapons is to be into a "death cult" is like saying being into sex is being into rape. Atypical Liberal Feb 2012 #47
I am not arguing that there is an absent mind. Glassunion Feb 2012 #46
If they are not simulating that... ellisonz Feb 2012 #53
They are not simulating violence. Glassunion Feb 2012 #58
You don't need a gun... ellisonz Feb 2012 #61
I don't need paper to write. Glassunion Feb 2012 #62
This "militarization" has been going on since man first picked up a rock. Atypical Liberal Feb 2012 #32
ragged holes. aikoaiko Feb 2012 #13
I think about score while target shooting... spin Feb 2012 #15
Umm... ellisonz Feb 2012 #18
Wrong. Clames Feb 2012 #20
"knows that a wound that would stop an attacker is seldom fatal." ellisonz Feb 2012 #22
I agree, "GUNS ARE NOT TOYS!!!... spin Feb 2012 #28
But people play games with weapons all the time. Atypical Liberal Feb 2012 #37
Proving my point... ellisonz Feb 2012 #40
This is like saying sex conditions people to rape. Atypical Liberal Feb 2012 #45
You do realize that rape... ellisonz Feb 2012 #48
Now perhaps there is a crack of understanding in your mindset. Atypical Liberal Feb 2012 #50
And you've actually made your mindset quite clear in the other thread... ellisonz Feb 2012 #55
As I said, I often contemplate violence and the implications of firearms and violence. Atypical Liberal Feb 2012 #56
"in the human mind weapons and violence are inextricably linked" Glassunion Feb 2012 #49
Oh, but he's a "professional" Atypical Liberal Feb 2012 #52
Weapons and Violence according to Ellison Atypical Liberal Feb 2012 #57
Why do you consider that a contradiction? ... spin Feb 2012 #26
Absolutely not! rl6214 Feb 2012 #29
When I'm shooting I'm mostly thinking about breath control, SeattleVet Feb 2012 #60
I'm going to lock this krispos42 Feb 2012 #64
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