Gun Control & RKBA

ellisonz

(27,776 posts)

162. The Nineth Amendment is quite clear...

Wed Dec 21, 2011, 08:04 PM

Dec 2011

...your right to firearms does does not surpass others rights to life and freedom.

I've never denied the right to self-defense. I've simply denied the right to irresponsible gun ownership as being inconsistent with the Second Amendment.

I'm just going to hazard that you were not a policeman in a major urban city. My old roommate was a police officer and EMS technician for the City of Chicago. He can tell you stories about gun violence that would pierce your shell of the belief in an absolutist rendition of the second amendment. Where do you think criminals get their guns?

Also, you discredit yourself when you say I have an "UNprogressive agenda," if you believe that to be true please go have some conversations with the majority of DUers who are in opposition to such ridiculous notions as the idea that your rights are "subverted" by reasonable measures to protect the public. What exactly was your purpose if a police officer if not to "protect and serve?"

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14-year-old boy dies after West Homestead shooting [View all] ellisonz Dec 2011 OP

Since what you posted was the whole article, what was it that you wanted to discuss? ManiacJoe Dec 2011 #1

Where do you think the three guns came from? ellisonz Dec 2011 #2

Good questions. rrneck Dec 2011 #5

I KNEW you had some comments just waiting to be attached. ManiacJoe Dec 2011 #6

Would you care to consider any root causes? ellisonz Dec 2011 #9

I am game for considering. What are you offering? ManiacJoe Dec 2011 #12

Sure. ellisonz Dec 2011 #13

how about checking out some of the laws gejohnston Dec 2011 #14

If the police don't think you need a gun... ellisonz Dec 2011 #15

so you want the elitist system like NYC gejohnston Dec 2011 #17

"The police are inherently authoritarian and right wing. They should have no arbitrary power." ellisonz Dec 2011 #18

you lost credibility when gejohnston Dec 2011 #21

Bahahaha... ellisonz Dec 2011 #23

I have respect for cops gejohnston Dec 2011 #36

They already do... ellisonz Dec 2011 #38

Well, you implied deference to the police, after all. nt SteveW Dec 2011 #75

Sure -- let's just give the police the right of refusal on ALL our rights. Straw Man Dec 2011 #20

I'm a Liberal. What are you? ellisonz Dec 2011 #22

Yet you want to give the police the final say in my civil liberties? That's a liberal position? nt hack89 Dec 2011 #27

... ellisonz Dec 2011 #30

So why do so many liberals here at DU disagree with you about gun control? hack89 Dec 2011 #33

I'm not restricting your rights. ellisonz Dec 2011 #37

No - you are restricting my rights hack89 Dec 2011 #42

not really gejohnston Dec 2011 #43

Gun-control is NOT liberal, it is recent pop politics... SteveW Dec 2011 #76

... ellisonz Dec 2011 #82

Why not? Is there something untrue about it? We_Have_A_Problem Dec 2011 #85

don't know much about history do you? gejohnston Dec 2011 #93

I'm not an expert on gun law history. ellisonz Dec 2011 #94

No kidding.... We_Have_A_Problem Dec 2011 #99

But at least I know about child safety seats... ellisonz Dec 2011 #100

I do too. We_Have_A_Problem Dec 2011 #106

yea, you're still in one one-eyed fat man Dec 2011 #143

Nothing left but personal attacks... ellisonz Dec 2011 #145

Having only a superficial knowledge of the gun restriction issue (at *best*) Simo 1939_1940 Dec 2011 #170

Check-mated again, eh? SteveW Dec 2011 #142

No. ellisonz Dec 2011 #146

Fact is, We_Have_A_Problem Dec 2011 #148

Yet another cartoon ripe for NRA royalty payments... SteveW Dec 2011 #173

For the most part people didn't own dozens of guns... ellisonz Dec 2011 #174

Yet ANOTHER NRA royalty check! Well, that's one way to defund the NRA... SteveW Dec 2011 #175

"Gun control is a liberal position" Simo 1939_1940 Dec 2011 #171

I'm a left-libertarian and a registered Democrat. Straw Man Dec 2011 #32

It's already up to the whims of the police... ellisonz Dec 2011 #34

Wild Wild West = historically low rates of gun violence? Really. nt hack89 Dec 2011 #39

If you get rid of the current gun controls...yes. n/t ellisonz Dec 2011 #41

So lets leave things exactly the way they are. hack89 Dec 2011 #44

Or we could make them better! n/t ellisonz Dec 2011 #47

Why tilt at windmills? There are more important and easier things to do. nt hack89 Dec 2011 #54

Why accept this level of gun violence? n/t ellisonz Dec 2011 #62

The problem is not the guns We_Have_A_Problem Dec 2011 #63

We have the technology. n/t ellisonz Dec 2011 #65

What technology do you believe we have? We_Have_A_Problem Dec 2011 #67

Then you're in willful denial. ellisonz Dec 2011 #69

Excuse me? We_Have_A_Problem Dec 2011 #77

Hope you never need the police... ellisonz Dec 2011 #80

Whether or not i need them is irrelevant We_Have_A_Problem Dec 2011 #90

The police have neither the ability nor obligation to protect citizens. Fair Witness Dec 2011 #110

They have the obligation to uphold the law - to protect and serve. ellisonz Dec 2011 #118

The police have no obligation to protect you, unless you are in their custody. n/t oneshooter Dec 2011 #126

That's not true - they have an obligation to public safety. ellisonz Dec 2011 #127

Nope - they dont We_Have_A_Problem Dec 2011 #134

I do live more or less in the "boonies"...as do millions of Americans. I hope you are not Fair Witness Dec 2011 #147

I'm suggesting you consider others rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness... ellisonz Dec 2011 #153

They are considered We_Have_A_Problem Dec 2011 #156

Your knowledge of civics is abysmal. "...life, liberty and the pursuit..." is from the Declaration Fair Witness Dec 2011 #158

But he feels so strongly.... We_Have_A_Problem Dec 2011 #160

The Nineth Amendment is quite clear... ellisonz Dec 2011 #162

I wrote reports on crimes that had already been committed. This was a semi-major urban city. Fair Witness Dec 2011 #163

"As to where criminals get their guns, how is that germane to the discussion?" ellisonz Dec 2011 #168

But you *do* have an "UNprogressive agenda"- you support the Patriot Act. friendly_iconoclast Dec 2011 #165

You can debate with these Democrats who voted for the extension... ellisonz Dec 2011 #167

I am debating with *you*, and I stand with Bernie Sanders and these Dems in opposition: friendly_iconoclast Dec 2011 #169

Every years it declines further - you have never been safer hack89 Dec 2011 #70

Reducing the supply of illegal guns through common sense measures would go a long way. ellisonz Dec 2011 #71

Why not? It is a public health issue - lets take the criminality out of it hack89 Dec 2011 #72

"Of course drug rehab will be offered free to all that want it" ellisonz Dec 2011 #78

If you want to buy me a gun safe go ahead. hack89 Dec 2011 #87

Several of the other posters here have them... ellisonz Dec 2011 #92

They are locked up - just angling for a bigger safe so I can grow my collection. nt hack89 Dec 2011 #96

Good. ellisonz Dec 2011 #97

Storage requirements not a problem providing they don't interfere with home defense. hack89 Dec 2011 #98

Requiring it? We_Have_A_Problem Dec 2011 #103

I'll pass on the trigger locks - at least for my self defense gun. nt hack89 Dec 2011 #89

Since this decline coincides with a general relaxing of gun control laws hack89 Dec 2011 #73

the wild wild west gejohnston Dec 2011 #46

Wasn't that a T.V. show? nt SteveW Dec 2011 #79

One of my favorites. nt hack89 Dec 2011 #88

Yeah it gejohnston Dec 2011 #95

Yeah, I saw the series frequently -- quite a jump-the-shark fantasy... SteveW Dec 2011 #139

Police are the biggest threat to your civil liberities hack89 Dec 2011 #26

Wrong. ellisonz Dec 2011 #28

They are militarized because of the war on drugs hack89 Dec 2011 #29

They're militarized because the war on drugs coincides with a massive... ellisonz Dec 2011 #31

As long as the police have no discretion I have no problem with a background check hack89 Dec 2011 #35

No, that's the *courts* determining that right, via due process friendly_iconoclast Dec 2011 #40

Fundamental misconception... Straw Man Dec 2011 #45

... ellisonz Dec 2011 #48

being arrested for gejohnston Dec 2011 #49

Do you really not get it? Straw Man Dec 2011 #50

Umm, please re-take 10th grade civics. X_Digger Dec 2011 #52

The police decide who gets arrested and then charged in the first place. ellisonz Dec 2011 #84

The police do not always decide who gets arrested. We_Have_A_Problem Dec 2011 #91

I have a reality based view of the police force. ellisonz Dec 2011 #114

Does not appear that you do but whatever. We_Have_A_Problem Dec 2011 #135

You've never been in a warrant court, have you? X_Digger Dec 2011 #109

No, the police only arrest. The DA charges. PavePusher Dec 2011 #113

They go to court We_Have_A_Problem Dec 2011 #57

The police perform arrestd based on either witnessing a crime, having a warrant or Fair Witness Dec 2011 #111

Funny how prohibition works... SteveW Dec 2011 #81

If the police don't think you need to vote? If the police don't think you need to demonstrate? X_Digger Dec 2011 #51

They are responsible for public safety. ellisonz Dec 2011 #53

The Patriot Act was to ensure public safety hack89 Dec 2011 #56

Yes. Next question. ellisonz Dec 2011 #117

So you support the Patriot Act? That explains a lot. nt hack89 Dec 2011 #120

So does the President, Congress and the Courts... ellisonz Dec 2011 #123

No unlimited right to privacy? hack89 Dec 2011 #124

Don't answer my question. ellisonz Dec 2011 #125

No - of course not. nt hack89 Dec 2011 #130

Then please denounce the idea that... ellisonz Dec 2011 #131

So the Scalia of his day has the final word? Burger was a conservative Republican. hack89 Dec 2011 #132

The ends justify any means, for some... friendly_iconoclast Dec 2011 #133

You are the first liberal gejohnston Dec 2011 #164

I'm not saying that at all. ellisonz Dec 2011 #166

That's why he was so offended by one-eyed fat man Dec 2011 #144

No, actually they arent. We_Have_A_Problem Dec 2011 #58

I can understant why you wouldn't want discuss the other civil liberties protected under the BoR. aikoaiko Dec 2011 #61

The whats the opposite? ellisonz Dec 2011 #116

the opposite of arbitary rules is rationale rules aikoaiko Dec 2011 #121

That's not an answer. Care to take another swing? n/t X_Digger Dec 2011 #108

And we come to the police state. PavePusher Dec 2011 #55

In general, the police are not qualified to make mental health judgments.... aikoaiko Dec 2011 #60

What about a police psychologist? ellisonz Dec 2011 #66

Do rank-and-file police like to use their own psychologists? SteveW Dec 2011 #83

They could rotate departments... ellisonz Dec 2011 #86

There are plenty people who consider liberals to be "mentally ill", per se. Fair Witness Dec 2011 #112

And most of them agree with the shared opinion of the pro-gun crowd in this forum... ellisonz Dec 2011 #115

My answer is in the law: If one is adjudicated mentally incompetent, no. nt SteveW Dec 2011 #136

Do you care about the victims of gun violence enough to want to do something real about it? n/t ellisonz Dec 2011 #104

Not at the expense of my rights We_Have_A_Problem Dec 2011 #107

"to make a victim feel better?" ellisonz Dec 2011 #119

My answer is in the law: If one is adjudicated mentally incompetent, no. SteveW Dec 2011 #137

So basically you're for leaving a loophole Jared Lee Loughner could drive a truck through? ellisonz Dec 2011 #155

No loophole at all. Just a relative of "unfunded mandates..." SteveW Dec 2011 #172

Any forensic clinical psychologist could, but there aren't many of them aikoaiko Dec 2011 #101

So why not have a real net. Clearly, people are getting through the way its currently designed. ellisonz Dec 2011 #102

Some are, but the safety net I'm talking about is not just about gun possession. aikoaiko Dec 2011 #105

I disagree with none of what you said there. ellisonz Dec 2011 #151

By the way, how would you suggest to accomplish "free Tibet" without armed force? Fair Witness Dec 2011 #149

I'll nibble. ellisonz Dec 2011 #150

The Brits were being gentlemen We_Have_A_Problem Dec 2011 #152

Again, stop butting in on other peoples discussion. ellisonz Dec 2011 #154

Does it bother you? We_Have_A_Problem Dec 2011 #157

Are you fucking serious? Fair Witness Dec 2011 #159

Does he speak for you? ellisonz Dec 2011 #161

I don't defer to the police when it comes to my rights... SteveW Dec 2011 #74

Just to bring you up to date a little Starboard Tack Dec 2011 #64

Newspapers, blogs and their websites are secondary sources, try the primary source o get up to date. russ1943 Dec 2011 #122

Thank you sir for your diligent research Starboard Tack Dec 2011 #129

I am glad they are improving gejohnston Dec 2011 #128

Hey! I think I figured it out! rrneck Dec 2011 #138

Good idea, but unfortunately it wouldn't work Starboard Tack Dec 2011 #140

Of course by the same token rrneck Dec 2011 #141

An engaging set of ideas. ManiacJoe Dec 2011 #16

Thank you. ellisonz Dec 2011 #19

"common sense measures" Atypical Liberal Dec 2011 #176

Make it illegal to steal other people's stuff? nt Remmah2 Dec 2011 #24

Lock up your guns? n/t ellisonz Dec 2011 #25

And, do you have a point or rl6214 Dec 2011 #3

See post #2. ellisonz Dec 2011 #4

Post removed Post removed Dec 2011 #7

WWM2kD? hidden criminals, gun show loophole, private sale, stolen guns. ileus Dec 2011 #8

Need a translation: WWM2kD ManiacJoe Dec 2011 #11

Its a play on WWJD... We_Have_A_Problem Dec 2011 #59

Yah, the M2k part had me confused. ManiacJoe Dec 2011 #68

sounds like a business dispute gejohnston Dec 2011 #10