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spin

(17,493 posts)
25. There is absolutely no reason to support any form of new draconian gun law...
Tue Dec 27, 2011, 10:32 PM
Dec 2011

Including registration, gun bans or your limit on firearm ownership. These are basically "feel good" laws and do not address any real problem. Violent crime is and has been decreasing and now is back at the levels of the 60s. Whatever we are doing is working. Statistics show that more guns do not equal more crime.

In 2009 America's crime rate was roughly the same as in 1968, with the homicide rate being at its lowest level since 1964. Overall, the national crime rate was 3466 crimes per 100,000 residents, down from 3680 crimes per 100,000 residents forty years earlier in 1969 (-9.4%).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States#Crime_over_time

2010 was even safer.

According to the figures released today by the FBI, the estimated number of violent crimes in 2010 declined for the fourth consecutive year. Property crimes also decreased, marking this the eighth straight year that the collective estimates for these offenses declined.

The 2010 statistics show that the estimated volumes of violent and property crimes declined 6.0 percent and 2.7 percent, respectively, when compared with the 2009 estimates. The violent crime rate for the year was 403.6 offenses per 100,000 inhabitants (a 6.5 percent decrease from the 2009 rate), and the property crime rate was 2,941.9 offenses per 100,000 persons (a 3.3 percent decrease from the 2009 figure).

http://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/press-releases/fbi-releases-2010-crime-statistics

And the preliminary figures for 2011 are even better!

Statistics released today in the FBI’s Preliminary Semiannual Uniform Crime Report indicate that the number of violent crimes reported in the first six months of 2011 declined 6.4 percent when compared with figures from the first six months of 2010. The number of property crimes decreased 3.7 percent for the same time frame. The report is based on information from more than 12,500 law enforcement agencies that submitted three to six comparable months of data to the FBI in the first six months of 2010 and 2011.
http://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/press-releases/fbi-releases-preliminary-semiannual-crime-statistics-for-2011

Our party would be far better off to just forget about the gun control issue and simply suggest improving and enforcing existing gun laws just as Obama has. Every time a Democrat in some very liberal bastion of the nation comes out with a new gun control idea, the news rapidly spreads across the nation. Many gun owners who live in areas where even the Democratic politicians are for RKBA decide to not vote for any Democrat ever. It hurts our party which is why I say we are shooting ourselves in the foot by pushing for new gun control.



I do not oppose tweaking existing gun laws to make them more effective and strict enforcement of these laws. However there is little support for the implementation of more gun control in today's society.


[div class="excerpt"
October 26, 2011
Record-Low 26% in U.S. Favor Handgun Ban
Support for stricter gun laws in general is lowest Gallup has measured

by Jeffrey M. Jones










Implications

Americans have shifted to a more pro-gun view on gun laws, particularly in recent years, with record-low support for a ban on handguns, an assault rifle ban, and stricter gun laws in general. This is the case even as high-profile incidents of gun violence continue in the United States, such as the January shootings at a meeting for U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords in Arizona.

The reasons for the shift do not appear related to reactions to the crime situation, as Gallup's Crime poll shows no major shifts in the trends in Americans' perceptions of crime, fear of crime, or reports of being victimized by crime in recent years. Nor does it appear to be tied to an increase in gun ownership, which has been around 40% since 2000, though it is a slightly higher 45% in this year's update. The 2011 updates on these trends will appear on Gallup.com in the coming days.

Perhaps the trends are a reflection of the American public's acceptance of guns. In 2008, Gallup found widespread agreement with the idea that the Second Amendment of the U.S. Constitution guarantees the right of Americans to own guns. Americans may also be moving toward more libertarian views in some areas, one example of which is greater support for legalizing marijuana use. Diminished support for gun-control laws may also be tied to the lack of major gun-control legislation efforts in Congress in recent years.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/150341/record-low-favor-handgun-ban.aspx

I agree this next election will probably be one of the nastiest in American history. However I believe there will be some improvement in the economy and that will enable Obama to win reelection. At this point it looks like the Republicans will make the mistake of nominating Romney and they will be wondering why he got squashed by Obama. Romney is not just a flip flopper, he is a shape shifter. The Republican base obviously dislikes him and if he gets the nomination they will simply not show up at the polls to vote. None of the other Republican candidates at this time look capable of even running a national campaign and they all seem a little strange and somewhat looney. Plus there is a possibility that someone like Trump or Palin will run on a third party ticket which would guarantee Obama's win even if the economy doesn't improve.

I too worry about Obama's safety but usually assassination attempts are tried by nuts such as Hinckley or are quite possibly hits carried out by professionals as may have happened during the Kennedy assassination. Obama hasn't proved to be a significant threat to the military industrial complex or any other powerful group for that matter. Therefore I have confidence that the Secret Service can deal with the nuts and nobody of any real power will feel threatened enough to hire the best hit men existing. Of course, if Obama were killed, draconian gun control would become possible even if a firearm was not involved. I pray for him not only to be a successful President but to survive. I did the same for every President after I lived through the Kennedy assassination as a teenager. Those were troubled times.

A question, you say. "my beef is not with responsible gun owners, my beef is with irresponsible gun owners and those who enable the possession of weapons by dangerous individuals such as the criminal, deranged, and hate groups." If that is actually true why do you want to limit the number of firearms that I own as I don't fit into any of those categories?

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

What was Howard Dean's NRA rating during most of his career, again? friendly_iconoclast Dec 2011 #1
Hmm. Your thread seems to have lost direction... SteveW Dec 2011 #2
Dude, that's the title of the article... ellisonz Dec 2011 #3
It was your content that wandered. Dude. SteveW Dec 2011 #10
You're the one bringing up Howard Dean...Dude. ellisonz Dec 2011 #59
Me? Howard Dean? Please reference where I brought him in... SteveW Dec 2011 #192
Define "dangerous amounts of arms". nt rrneck Dec 2011 #4
Sure. ellisonz Dec 2011 #5
An articulate non answer. rrneck Dec 2011 #6
That was a pretty damn clear answer. ellisonz Dec 2011 #7
I call it bullshit. rrneck Dec 2011 #11
I call such lines of attack repetative. ellisonz Dec 2011 #12
That's what I thought. rrneck Dec 2011 #13
I'm not comparing gun ownership to golfing. n/t ellisonz Dec 2011 #16
Actually, you are. rrneck Dec 2011 #17
"people's personal recreational activities" ellisonz Dec 2011 #18
So what is the difference rrneck Dec 2011 #21
None. ellisonz Dec 2011 #27
Are members of any militia you care to name rrneck Dec 2011 #83
Oh man, not Michael Moore's huge pile of shit again. AtheistCrusader Dec 2011 #96
And they were able to use a straw buyers to obtain... ellisonz Dec 2011 #97
You cannot pre-emptively 'stop' straw buyers. AtheistCrusader Dec 2011 #118
You may be right, but we're not even trying hard to deter it... ellisonz Dec 2011 #180
Oh please. AtheistCrusader Dec 2011 #181
Oh yeah... ellisonz Dec 2011 #182
New poll for ya.. X_Digger Dec 2011 #186
What if we need to pass new laws to enforce the current laws? ellisonz Dec 2011 #189
Then you're screwed. :) n/t X_Digger Dec 2011 #208
Bowling for Columbine was embarrassing DissedByBush Dec 2011 #125
Agreed. Have you read Kopel's outstanding scene-by scene takedown of Moore's garbage? Simo 1939_1940 Dec 2011 #148
Interesting read, thanks n/t DissedByBush Dec 2011 #184
"Damn right we'll confiscate." PavePusher Dec 2011 #32
Government has such rights. ellisonz Dec 2011 #68
Not without compensation, it doesn't. How will you pay for them? And hypothetically.. friendly_iconoclast Dec 2011 #72
Considering the public cost of the current regime of laws... ellisonz Dec 2011 #84
And from whence do you derive this figure of $100 billion? friendly_iconoclast Dec 2011 #88
Here you go... ellisonz Dec 2011 #139
"They said it, I believe it, and that settles it." friendly_iconoclast Dec 2011 #166
"I object to the tyranny of a few over the rights of the many." PavePusher Dec 2011 #105
That's your opinion. ellisonz Dec 2011 #140
Fixxed it for you. beevul Dec 2011 #111
Wait a minute. rrneck Dec 2011 #207
Tax's on new sales. ellisonz Dec 2011 #188
Gun and ammo sales already Federally taxed at 11%. PavePusher Dec 2011 #197
The government has no rights DissedByBush Dec 2011 #185
You gonna be the one to come pick them up? rl6214 Dec 2011 #203
Nice cartoons. Remmah2 Dec 2011 #41
You're welcome. ellisonz Dec 2011 #69
No ex post facto laws. AtheistCrusader Dec 2011 #95
Oh there's plenty of wiggle room on this one... ellisonz Dec 2011 #98
You propose to tell 80 million people that you're going to take their property? friendly_iconoclast Dec 2011 #101
You propose to do little or nothing it seems... ellisonz Dec 2011 #102
No, people like YOU will make sure of that. AtheistCrusader Dec 2011 #121
What "festering problems" would those be? Can't be the violent crime and murder rates... friendly_iconoclast Dec 2011 #129
Simplification and obsfucation. ellisonz Dec 2011 #149
Nice of you to highlight the 'status offense' part I already pointed out. AtheistCrusader Dec 2011 #119
Minneapolis Star v. Minnesota Commissioner of Revenue, for another. friendly_iconoclast Dec 2011 #128
There is literally zero percent chance of that happening. Union Scribe Dec 2011 #113
Welcome to the United States of Fear! ellisonz Dec 2011 #152
...was that a reply to my post? Union Scribe Dec 2011 #183
Yes. ellisonz Dec 2011 #187
Right, I know that part. I wrote it. Union Scribe Dec 2011 #190
"Damn right we'll confiscate." Common Sense Party Dec 2011 #114
"we" will confiscate? Do you have a turd in your pocket? You are more than welcome to Fair Witness Dec 2011 #133
He won't volunteer for the job. PavePusher Dec 2011 #167
Cheeto-munching fatass keyboard kommandos never do. Fair Witness Dec 2011 #198
"Damn right we'll confiscate" beevul Dec 2011 #156
"Damn right we'll confiscate." MicaelS Dec 2011 #194
Not such inane ideas at all. Maybe some of you need to get your "head" out of your gun barrels. Hoyt Dec 2011 #19
Their ideas wont be clear at all rrneck Dec 2011 #20
Most folks don't know anything about bombs, poisons, etc., but we regulate them. Plenty of examples. Hoyt Dec 2011 #22
You're funny. rrneck Dec 2011 #23
We are talking about private explosives, etc., not military. Besides, you want to arm populace. Hoyt Dec 2011 #28
Awwwwww. rrneck Dec 2011 #65
Militarism according to Merriam-Webster. ellisonz Dec 2011 #30
Sounds about right. nt rrneck Dec 2011 #81
I would add that I've been around guns... ellisonz Dec 2011 #29
Sounds like part of your gun phobia is based on fiction. Remmah2 Dec 2011 #39
Well that and the front page of the newspaper... ellisonz Dec 2011 #70
Another variation on "some of my best friends are..." Fair Witness Dec 2011 #134
Are you saying I'm a liar? ellisonz Dec 2011 #158
Feel free. I said you were not the first person to preface a bigoted comment with a disclaimer. Fair Witness Dec 2011 #163
I'll take that as a gruding apology. n/t ellisonz Dec 2011 #169
Post removed Post removed Dec 2011 #199
Of course you have rl6214 Dec 2011 #204
I just don't sleep with one ellisonz Dec 2011 #205
Sort of like your "long-range laser sniper sights", or whatever hoodooo you claimed? n/t PavePusher Dec 2011 #34
How many arms do you have, of the biological type? DissedByBush Dec 2011 #115
Reductio ad absurdum. ellisonz Dec 2011 #138
"Free state" DissedByBush Dec 2011 #155
It's only "treason" if you lose. PavePusher Dec 2011 #202
You won't win. ellisonz Dec 2011 #206
You can hold your rofl, as I am not endorsing such activity.... PavePusher Dec 2011 #209
I'm prepared to advocate reasonable security of firearms. Remmah2 Dec 2011 #36
Why should the tax payers at large pay for this? ellisonz Dec 2011 #37
Only the ATF provides that level of government support. Remmah2 Dec 2011 #40
So do I own a "dangerous number" of firearms? Atypical Liberal Dec 2011 #62
Ron Paul is in the lead now...time to switch your focus. ileus Dec 2011 #8
Ron Paul is in league with the pro-gun lobby too. ellisonz Dec 2011 #14
Why should we give the GOP the opportunity to use gun control as a wedge issue.. spin Dec 2011 #9
"I suspect that you favor the incremental approach to eventually banning all firearms." ellisonz Dec 2011 #15
There is absolutely no reason to support any form of new draconian gun law... spin Dec 2011 #25
I don't think it's going to be Romney. ellisonz Dec 2011 #31
#3.... How about 5 years after you have licences... PavePusher Dec 2011 #35
I don't understand what the heck you're arguing for. ellisonz Dec 2011 #42
"The First Amendment says nothing about regulation." PavePusher Dec 2011 #47
... ellisonz Dec 2011 #52
"well-regulated.. X_Digger Dec 2011 #55
Sophistry. ellisonz Dec 2011 #71
He doesn't have to convince you- you need to persuade the Supreme Court of your stance. friendly_iconoclast Dec 2011 #79
How many far-right Republican judges did you need to get that Supreme Court case? ellisonz Dec 2011 #82
Of course it's the government limiting itself- see the anti-federalists' writings. X_Digger Dec 2011 #116
#4... So, you agree with this guy: PavePusher Dec 2011 #38
Not perhaps that exact phrasing of 1,000 feet...but yes, in principle... ellisonz Dec 2011 #45
Mere exercise of a Constitutional Right within sight of a political figure.... PavePusher Dec 2011 #49
Bullshit. ellisonz Dec 2011 #53
Those "Federal agents" would be there to protect the president.... PavePusher Dec 2011 #66
Dingbat. ellisonz Dec 2011 #73
I haven't asserted anything other than that the SS is there to do a particular job... PavePusher Dec 2011 #104
That's quite the delusion... ellisonz Dec 2011 #106
Again you accuse me of nefarious intent. PavePusher Dec 2011 #108
I will not... ellisonz Dec 2011 #136
Bzzzzzzt!! Thank you for demonstrating your ignorance... again. PavePusher Dec 2011 #172
I've said you're belief enables them... ellisonz Dec 2011 #173
Well, your opinion of legal carriers is now well known. Nothing I can add to your vitriol and fear. PavePusher Dec 2011 #174
Now you're just obsfucating... ellisonz Dec 2011 #175
"How does this not violate the First Amendment right to peaceable assembly?" PavePusher Dec 2011 #67
Well then denounce your previous position... ellisonz Dec 2011 #74
What position? That the indeterminate proximity of a elected public servent... PavePusher Dec 2011 #107
"indeterminate proximity" ellisonz Dec 2011 #135
Addition in response to your edit: ellisonz Dec 2011 #86
Firstly, no-one claimed any legally armed person can guarantee anyones' safety... PavePusher Dec 2011 #109
"No-one appeared concerned by my sidearm." ellisonz Dec 2011 #137
You've moved all your goal-posts (yes, we saw that), and again accused me of making threats. PavePusher Dec 2011 #168
Please make an OP declaring your belief that you should be allowed... ellisonz Dec 2011 #171
"this was the Democratic position in 2008" -- selective amnesia? Or just ignorance? X_Digger Dec 2011 #43
You object to the Democratic Nominee's and Current President's position? ellisonz Dec 2011 #48
Disagreement on one issue =/= "don't like our candidates". PavePusher Dec 2011 #50
So tell me what positions of our candidates do you like? ellisonz Dec 2011 #54
The president has changed his tune. X_Digger Dec 2011 #51
What if it's in the platform again? ellisonz Dec 2011 #57
Shall I remind you? X_Digger Dec 2011 #61
The President is not that stupid hack89 Dec 2011 #191
What possible threat is a man with 200 guns? Atypical Liberal Dec 2011 #63
Don't give Republicans so much credit. ellisonz Dec 2011 #75
I would think he has a nice collection and disposable income. Atypical Liberal Dec 2011 #123
"I don't know anyone who leaves firearms "strewn about"." ellisonz Dec 2011 #151
Really? Atypical Liberal Dec 2011 #157
Please use the google. ellisonz Dec 2011 #159
No thanks. Atypical Liberal Dec 2011 #193
And at what point does a firearm stray from a "antique" oneshooter Dec 2011 #132
At what point does the spoken word become obscenity? n/t ellisonz Dec 2011 #150
It will be an interesting election year... spin Dec 2011 #130
"Gun rights were not the prime issue driving the Tea Party in the midterm election." ellisonz Dec 2011 #147
Post removed Post removed Dec 2011 #200
Yet less than an hour before, it was "Damn right we'll confiscate". friendly_iconoclast Dec 2011 #60
Whoops! His agenda is showing. Atypical Liberal Dec 2011 #64
What's your agenda? n/t ellisonz Dec 2011 #76
With regards to what? Atypical Liberal Dec 2011 #124
Twisting my words. ellisonz Dec 2011 #77
Why should I denounce him for something he did not say? friendly_iconoclast Dec 2011 #85
So you support the right to carry near Federal officials and politicians? ellisonz Dec 2011 #87
I'm also not denying that I'm better looking than George Clooney and smarter than Stephen Hawking... friendly_iconoclast Dec 2011 #89
Dodge. ellisonz Dec 2011 #92
It sure is a good thing those Secret Service guys don't carry guns Fair Witness Dec 2011 #201
Gee, then I guess the Dems had better stop being anti-gun... krispos42 Dec 2011 #24
+1000 (n/t) spin Dec 2011 #26
They are going to play the gun card no matter what we say... ellisonz Dec 2011 #33
LOL Remmah2 Dec 2011 #44
So you don't support the NRA and its positions? ellisonz Dec 2011 #58
One can be pro2A, be a labor democrat and think the NRA is crazy. Remmah2 Dec 2011 #122
So denounce the fuckers... ellisonz Dec 2011 #143
right, denounce the gejohnston Dec 2011 #146
Lol, check this list.. X_Digger Dec 2011 #46
They give far more to Republicans... ellisonz Dec 2011 #80
They give more to Democrats than the Brady Campaign ever has. friendly_iconoclast Dec 2011 #90
There are more powerful means of support than money you know... ellisonz Dec 2011 #91
Money aside, why on Earth can't the Bradys get more members? They're outnumbered 80:1 by the NRA friendly_iconoclast Dec 2011 #100
You're seriously justifying mob logic... ellisonz Dec 2011 #103
So is democracy "mob logic"? nt Remmah2 Dec 2011 #126
So here's my question to you: ellisonz Dec 2011 #145
dumb question gejohnston Dec 2011 #162
I endorse electoral reality. Telling 80 million voters they need political and psychological tests.. friendly_iconoclast Dec 2011 #127
He was 10 years old in 1996. Of course he doesn't remember. X_Digger Dec 2011 #131
IOW, he was watching Zoom when I was picketing Newt Gingrich's residence with ADAPT. friendly_iconoclast Dec 2011 #164
It's okay. One day this country will be tired of this nonsense... ellisonz Dec 2011 #144
How many members does the youth wing of the Brady Campaign have? friendly_iconoclast Dec 2011 #165
Seriously? ellisonz Dec 2011 #170
There's a job for you! Start the Department of Scientific Disarmament Instruction friendly_iconoclast Dec 2011 #176
You think you're funny... ellisonz Dec 2011 #177
No biggie- You're not the first "Billy Sunday of gun control" to show up here... friendly_iconoclast Dec 2011 #178
You do realize of course... ellisonz Dec 2011 #179
When where you appointed to speak for "the majority of DU"- or any other DUer, for that matter? friendly_iconoclast Dec 2011 #196
Hahaha look at you. 8 PAGES of data and naaaa nahananahahana I can't hear you AtheistCrusader Dec 2011 #94
I must be getting to you... ellisonz Dec 2011 #99
Endorsements aren't spam. AtheistCrusader Dec 2011 #120
Shall I start posting the names of victims of the NRA's promotion of gun violence... ellisonz Dec 2011 #142
Candidates or voters? AtheistCrusader Dec 2011 #154
Will do... ellisonz Dec 2011 #160
"now they pretty much just stand for Republicans" -- you agree that you misspoke? X_Digger Dec 2011 #117
Numbers don't lie. ellisonz Dec 2011 #141
Why would they endorse democrats over republicans then? X_Digger Dec 2011 #153
The NRA sucks like a neutron star krispos42 Dec 2011 #56
The seizure of power by GWB had quite a lot to do with such issues. ellisonz Dec 2011 #78
Yawn AtheistCrusader Dec 2011 #161
I disagree. DanTex Dec 2011 #110
"Gun militancy is a way of saying FU to the supposedly liberal elite" MicaelS Dec 2011 #195
No, they aren't going to 'no matter what we say'. AtheistCrusader Dec 2011 #93
Thanks to this thread I decided to spring for a couple of AR stripped lowers. ileus Dec 2011 #112
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