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Euromutt

(6,506 posts)
20. Can we say "post hoc ergo propter hoc"?
Thu Jan 5, 2012, 08:47 AM
Jan 2012

There are very, very few editorial cartoonists who possess sufficient insight to produce cartoons that actually make a valid point. Mr. Adcock is not one of them.

I'll trot out the usual objections:
1) The American non-firearm homicide rate is higher than the overall homicide rate in most western European countries.
Even if you could magically make all firearms disappear from the US overnight, and even if there were no "method substitution" (i.e. if homicides that would otherwise be committed using firearms were not committed at all, rather than by other means such as blades, bludgeons, "personal force" etc.), the U.S. homicide rate would still be higher than that of most western European countries.
2) The lower homicide rates, by firearm or otherwise, in Europe predate European gun control laws. In most European countries, gun control laws weren't imposed until in the immediate aftermath of World War I and (more importantly) the Russian and German revolutions. These laws weren't intended to curb violent crime, but to forestall armed revolts by disgruntled (former) military personnel with (legitimate) grievances against their respective governments.
3) European suicide rates aren't notably lower than American ones. Europeans hang themselves or jump in front of passenger trains instead of shooting themselves; they wind up just as dead (and traumatize the engineer to boot). One could readily reverse the cartoon with "train-related deaths."

Just take a look at Britain. The London Metropolitan Police Service has, for quite a few years now, been operating Trident, a task force assigned to dealing with gun violence perpetrated by blacks (be they of Afro-Caribbean descent, African or whatnot) on other blacks. Not entirely coincidentally, a sizable chunk of American gun violence is similarly "black on black," notably in places like Detroit, Baltimore and Oakland. One aspect in which the U.S. differs from western European countries is that, where European countries shunted African slaves to their (Central and South) American and Caribbean colonies, the U.S. brought them right into their own territory. As a result, whereas the U.S. had to deal with an influx of former slaves spreading across the country after the Civil War, European countries didn't have that problem until decolonization almost a century later, combined with bringing in "guest laborers" from Turkey and North Africa (and Yugoslavia). In short, the United States simply has a century's head start on western Europe in fostering an ethnically based socio-economic underclass of darker-skinned individuals who are unable to identify with the lands of their ancestors, but are treated as outsiders by their "host" societies. Not coincidentally, gun crimes have been on the rise, notably with perpetrators of foreign descent, in European countries for the past twenty years. In particular, the Yugoslav wars of the early 1990s created a supply of weapons and thugs willing and able to use them, who happily placed themselves in the service of those operating the pipeline of Taliban-encouraged heroin from Afghanistan westward.

Lest anyone accuse me of racism, my point is not that there's something inherently criminal about non-whites; it's that individuals who are members of a socio-economic underclass and seek to escape it are practically forced to do so by resorting to criminal activity. They don't do it because they're bad, they do it because they're poor (though the industry turns them bad fairly quickly).

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

When in doubt, pile on ever more restrictions... SteveW Jan 2012 #1
Ah the gun laws in the western civilized nations rl6214 Jan 2012 #2
As for Benjamin Barnes, so for Michael Atherton. friendly_iconoclast Jan 2012 #3
well, I'll say exactly what I said in the thread iverglas Jan 2012 #4
But let's be accurate. discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2012 #6
perhaps you would ask iverglas Jan 2012 #8
I will... discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2012 #11
I dunno iverglas Jan 2012 #12
As I expected... discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2012 #13
but not actually iverglas Jan 2012 #15
This is where any new work needs to start. discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2012 #27
And that "careful screening" will not occur, as firearms possession has now gotten... friendly_iconoclast Jan 2012 #7
what is the basis for this repeated assertion? iverglas Jan 2012 #9
And efficacy can only be determined in retrospect, and reasonableness is subjective. friendly_iconoclast Jan 2012 #30
round and round and round iverglas Jan 2012 #31
love your citation iverglas Jan 2012 #5
A law is only as effective as its enforcement Euromutt Jan 2012 #10
The police then need more oversight/and or funding. n/t ellisonz Jan 2012 #16
The police need more oversight, lest... lest what? Euromutt Jan 2012 #19
Lest they ineffectively enforce the firearms permitting laws. n/t ellisonz Jan 2012 #24
What's noteworthy about this story is that in England, this is actually a noteworthy story. DanTex Jan 2012 #14
+1000 ellisonz Jan 2012 #17
Can we say "post hoc ergo propter hoc"? Euromutt Jan 2012 #20
The "usual objections"... DanTex Jan 2012 #21
Simply put Dan.... We_Have_A_Problem Jan 2012 #22
Yes, facts are facts. DanTex Jan 2012 #23
I can make the distinction quite easily We_Have_A_Problem Jan 2012 #25
How much of our murder rate is skewed by drug violence? hack89 Jan 2012 #26
why do you imply this is not true of other comparable countries? iverglas Jan 2012 #33
So lets fix that problem first - more bang for the buck hack89 Jan 2012 #34
a site that may be of interest iverglas Jan 2012 #29
more likely gejohnston Jan 2012 #18
I meant to say that iverglas Jan 2012 #28
There are options... discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2012 #32
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