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In reply to the discussion: Police: Body found at US park is that of gunman [View all]iverglas
(38,549 posts)114. well, you may need to understand administrative law better
I'm sorry, but including "risk factors" as a criteria is entirely too subjective.
"Arbitrary and capricious exercise of discretion" would be what you have in mind, I guess.
The Canadian system provides for a judicial review of denials/revocations of firearms licences.
The permissible use of discretion has been pretty thoroughly canvassed by the courts in Canada over the last two or three decades (much of the development having been in immigration law at the time I was in practice).
http://www.canlii.org/en/ca/laws/stat/sc-1995-c-39/latest/sc-1995-c-39.html
Note that none of the factors in section 5 is a BAR to the issuance of a licence (as they are in the US, e.g. criminal convictions, confinement to a mental health facility). So in point of fact, the discretion granted here allows for LESS restrictive treatment than in the US.
And then of course anyone may apply for leave to appeal to the Supreme Court of Canada.
Does that all sound "subjective"?
The fundamental principle is:
A person is not eligible to hold a licence if it is desirable, in the interests of the safety of that or any other person, that the person not possess a firearm
and if a licence is denied or revoked on that basis, reasons must be given and the decision is subject to review. Judges are not "subjective"; they apply appropriate tests to facts of cases.
"Arbitrary and capricious exercise of discretion" would be what you have in mind, I guess.
The Canadian system provides for a judicial review of denials/revocations of firearms licences.
The permissible use of discretion has been pretty thoroughly canvassed by the courts in Canada over the last two or three decades (much of the development having been in immigration law at the time I was in practice).
http://www.canlii.org/en/ca/laws/stat/sc-1995-c-39/latest/sc-1995-c-39.html
Firearms Act (Canada)
AUTHORIZED POSSESSION
Eligibility to Hold Licences
General Rules
Public safety
5. (1) A person is not eligible to hold a licence if it is desirable, in the interests of the safety of that or any other person, that the person not possess a firearm, a cross-bow, a prohibited weapon, a restricted weapon, a prohibited device, ammunition or prohibited ammunition.
Criteria
(2) In determining whether a person is eligible to hold a licence under subsection (1), a chief firearms officer or, on a reference under section 74, a provincial court judge shall have regard to whether the person, within the previous five years,
(a) has been convicted or discharged under section 730 of the Criminal Code of
(i) an offence in the commission of which violence against another person was used, threatened or attempted,
(ii) an offence under this Act or Part III of the Criminal Code,
(iii) an offence under section 264 of the Criminal Code (criminal harassment), or
(iv) an offence relating to the contravention of subsection 5(1) or (2), 6(1) or (2) or 7(1) of the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act;
(b) has been treated for a mental illness, whether in a hospital, mental institute, psychiatric clinic or otherwise and whether or not the person was confined to such a hospital, institute or clinic, that was associated with violence or threatened or attempted violence on the part of the person against any person; or
(c) has a history of behaviour that includes violence or threatened or attempted violence on the part of the person against any person.
Further information
55. (1) A chief firearms officer or the Registrar may require an applicant for a licence or authorization to submit such information, in addition to that included in the application, as may reasonably be regarded as relevant for the purpose of determining whether the applicant is eligible to hold the licence or authorization.
Investigation
(2) Without restricting the scope of the inquiries that may be made with respect to an application for a licence, a chief firearms officer may conduct an investigation of the applicant, which may consist of interviews with neighbours, community workers, social workers, individuals who work or live with the applicant, spouse or common-law partner, former spouse or former common-law partner, dependants or whomever in the opinion of the chief firearms officer may provide information pertaining to whether the applicant is eligible under section 5 to hold a licence.
AUTHORIZED POSSESSION
Eligibility to Hold Licences
General Rules
Public safety
5. (1) A person is not eligible to hold a licence if it is desirable, in the interests of the safety of that or any other person, that the person not possess a firearm, a cross-bow, a prohibited weapon, a restricted weapon, a prohibited device, ammunition or prohibited ammunition.
Criteria
(2) In determining whether a person is eligible to hold a licence under subsection (1), a chief firearms officer or, on a reference under section 74, a provincial court judge shall have regard to whether the person, within the previous five years,
(a) has been convicted or discharged under section 730 of the Criminal Code of
(i) an offence in the commission of which violence against another person was used, threatened or attempted,
(ii) an offence under this Act or Part III of the Criminal Code,
(iii) an offence under section 264 of the Criminal Code (criminal harassment), or
(iv) an offence relating to the contravention of subsection 5(1) or (2), 6(1) or (2) or 7(1) of the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act;
(b) has been treated for a mental illness, whether in a hospital, mental institute, psychiatric clinic or otherwise and whether or not the person was confined to such a hospital, institute or clinic, that was associated with violence or threatened or attempted violence on the part of the person against any person; or
(c) has a history of behaviour that includes violence or threatened or attempted violence on the part of the person against any person.
Further information
55. (1) A chief firearms officer or the Registrar may require an applicant for a licence or authorization to submit such information, in addition to that included in the application, as may reasonably be regarded as relevant for the purpose of determining whether the applicant is eligible to hold the licence or authorization.
Investigation
(2) Without restricting the scope of the inquiries that may be made with respect to an application for a licence, a chief firearms officer may conduct an investigation of the applicant, which may consist of interviews with neighbours, community workers, social workers, individuals who work or live with the applicant, spouse or common-law partner, former spouse or former common-law partner, dependants or whomever in the opinion of the chief firearms officer may provide information pertaining to whether the applicant is eligible under section 5 to hold a licence.
Note that none of the factors in section 5 is a BAR to the issuance of a licence (as they are in the US, e.g. criminal convictions, confinement to a mental health facility). So in point of fact, the discretion granted here allows for LESS restrictive treatment than in the US.
Notice of refusal to issue or revocation
72. (1) Subject to subsection (1.1), if a chief firearms officer decides to refuse to issue or to revoke a licence or authorization to transport or the Registrar decides to refuse to issue or to revoke a registration certificate, authorization to export or authorization to import, the chief firearms officer or Registrar shall give notice of the decision in the prescribed form to the applicant for or holder of the licence, registration certificate or authorization. ...
References to Provincial Court Judge
Reference to judge of refusal to issue or revocation, etc.
74. (1) Subject to subsection (2), where
(a) a chief firearms officer or the Registrar refuses to issue or revokes a licence, registration certificate, authorization to transport, authorization to export or authorization to import, ...
the applicant for or holder of the licence, registration certificate, authorization or approval may refer the matter to a provincial court judge in the territorial division in which the applicant or holder resides.
Decision by provincial court judge
76. On the hearing of a reference, the provincial court judge may, by order,
(a) confirm the decision of the chief firearms officer, Registrar or provincial minister;
(b) direct the chief firearms officer or Registrar to issue a licence, registration certificate or authorization or direct the provincial minister to approve a shooting club or shooting range; or
(c) cancel the revocation of the licence, registration certificate, authorization or approval or the decision of the chief firearms officer under section 67.
Appeal to superior court
77. (1) Subject to section 78, where a provincial court judge makes an order under paragraph 76(a), the applicant for or holder of the licence, registration certificate, authorization or approval, as the case may be, may appeal to the superior court against the order.
Appeal to court of appeal
80. An appeal to the court of appeal may, with leave of that court or of a judge of that court, be taken against a decision of a superior court under section 79 on any ground that involves a question of law alone.
72. (1) Subject to subsection (1.1), if a chief firearms officer decides to refuse to issue or to revoke a licence or authorization to transport or the Registrar decides to refuse to issue or to revoke a registration certificate, authorization to export or authorization to import, the chief firearms officer or Registrar shall give notice of the decision in the prescribed form to the applicant for or holder of the licence, registration certificate or authorization. ...
References to Provincial Court Judge
Reference to judge of refusal to issue or revocation, etc.
74. (1) Subject to subsection (2), where
(a) a chief firearms officer or the Registrar refuses to issue or revokes a licence, registration certificate, authorization to transport, authorization to export or authorization to import, ...
the applicant for or holder of the licence, registration certificate, authorization or approval may refer the matter to a provincial court judge in the territorial division in which the applicant or holder resides.
Decision by provincial court judge
76. On the hearing of a reference, the provincial court judge may, by order,
(a) confirm the decision of the chief firearms officer, Registrar or provincial minister;
(b) direct the chief firearms officer or Registrar to issue a licence, registration certificate or authorization or direct the provincial minister to approve a shooting club or shooting range; or
(c) cancel the revocation of the licence, registration certificate, authorization or approval or the decision of the chief firearms officer under section 67.
Appeal to superior court
77. (1) Subject to section 78, where a provincial court judge makes an order under paragraph 76(a), the applicant for or holder of the licence, registration certificate, authorization or approval, as the case may be, may appeal to the superior court against the order.
Appeal to court of appeal
80. An appeal to the court of appeal may, with leave of that court or of a judge of that court, be taken against a decision of a superior court under section 79 on any ground that involves a question of law alone.
And then of course anyone may apply for leave to appeal to the Supreme Court of Canada.
Does that all sound "subjective"?
The fundamental principle is:
A person is not eligible to hold a licence if it is desirable, in the interests of the safety of that or any other person, that the person not possess a firearm
and if a licence is denied or revoked on that basis, reasons must be given and the decision is subject to review. Judges are not "subjective"; they apply appropriate tests to facts of cases.
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i am just so sad by this story. i know that i am suppose to be angry at this man.
seabeyond
Jan 2012
#1
for fuck sake, lol..... it is a gun issue wish was not how i addressed the post
seabeyond
Jan 2012
#4
MSM called him a "survivalist" rathern than face up to how he became a murderer...
SteveW
Jan 2012
#78
yes. and again... because in my book, i almost feel it rude not to reply to a person.
seabeyond
Jan 2012
#86
respectfully, i disagree. lol, i do mean respectfully. poster #3 GUESSED and MADE UP (as you are)
seabeyond
Jan 2012
#96
You'll see guys like him in any gun store in this country. And you guys want him to carry in public.
Hoyt
Jan 2012
#27
And who are "you guys"? Got a link to a thread where someone said that?
friendly_iconoclast
Jan 2012
#30
*I* certainly wouldn't have wanted him to carry, as he was obviously deranged.
friendly_iconoclast
Jan 2012
#44
That would be prior restraint, and it's something generally frowned upon.
friendly_iconoclast
Jan 2012
#77
Ah, but since it's now a protected right, a higher standard prevails
friendly_iconoclast
Jan 2012
#88
And sometimes, the precautions simply don't work. See one Michael Atherton, for example:
friendly_iconoclast
Jan 2012
#94
I'd point out that firearms categories are not congruent in our two countries.
friendly_iconoclast
Jan 2012
#100
I've no inherent objection to mandatory licensing, as it's used here in Massachusetts.
friendly_iconoclast
Jan 2012
#106
I'm sorry, but including "risk factors" as a criteria is entirely too subjective.
friendly_iconoclast
Jan 2012
#113
What does this "current events" post have to do with the topics of the Guns discussion group?
slackmaster
Jan 2012
#11
Yes, it *is* telling. It tells me that veterans need better aftercare.
friendly_iconoclast
Jan 2012
#17
The post would be a much better contribution if it included even a minimal editorial remark in OP
slackmaster
Jan 2012
#49
People with strong views on any subject tend to be the ones most likely to engage in discussions
slackmaster
Jan 2012
#83
In political science, the term for "strong views" is "militancy," like stuffing envelopes. nt
SteveW
Jan 2012
#92
Just wondering why poster wants one of those guns so bad, and why in hell he would post it here.
Hoyt
Jan 2012
#31
That's the kind of gunner I know-- talking about guns and crud over victim's grave?
Hoyt
Jan 2012
#41
And they are popular among those who pose in front of mirror before shooting a woman.
Hoyt
Jan 2012
#42
And computers are popular amongst those who trade child pornography, run botnets...
friendly_iconoclast
Jan 2012
#45
Should probably replace Bill Wade with someone that has two brain cells to rub together.
AtheistCrusader
Jan 2012
#62