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iverglas

(38,549 posts)
114. well, you may need to understand administrative law better
Thu Jan 5, 2012, 03:16 PM
Jan 2012
I'm sorry, but including "risk factors" as a criteria is entirely too subjective.

"Arbitrary and capricious exercise of discretion" would be what you have in mind, I guess.

The Canadian system provides for a judicial review of denials/revocations of firearms licences.

The permissible use of discretion has been pretty thoroughly canvassed by the courts in Canada over the last two or three decades (much of the development having been in immigration law at the time I was in practice).


http://www.canlii.org/en/ca/laws/stat/sc-1995-c-39/latest/sc-1995-c-39.html

Firearms Act (Canada)

AUTHORIZED POSSESSION
Eligibility to Hold Licences
General Rules
Public safety

5. (1) A person is not eligible to hold a licence if it is desirable, in the interests of the safety of that or any other person, that the person not possess a firearm, a cross-bow, a prohibited weapon, a restricted weapon, a prohibited device, ammunition or prohibited ammunition.
Criteria

(2) In determining whether a person is eligible to hold a licence under subsection (1), a chief firearms officer or, on a reference under section 74, a provincial court judge shall have regard to whether the person, within the previous five years,

(a) has been convicted or discharged under section 730 of the Criminal Code of

(i) an offence in the commission of which violence against another person was used, threatened or attempted,
(ii) an offence under this Act or Part III of the Criminal Code,
(iii) an offence under section 264 of the Criminal Code (criminal harassment), or
(iv) an offence relating to the contravention of subsection 5(1) or (2), 6(1) or (2) or 7(1) of the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act;

(b) has been treated for a mental illness, whether in a hospital, mental institute, psychiatric clinic or otherwise and whether or not the person was confined to such a hospital, institute or clinic, that was associated with violence or threatened or attempted violence on the part of the person against any person; or

(c) has a history of behaviour that includes violence or threatened or attempted violence on the part of the person against any person.

Further information

55. (1) A chief firearms officer or the Registrar may require an applicant for a licence or authorization to submit such information, in addition to that included in the application, as may reasonably be regarded as relevant for the purpose of determining whether the applicant is eligible to hold the licence or authorization.

Investigation

(2) Without restricting the scope of the inquiries that may be made with respect to an application for a licence, a chief firearms officer may conduct an investigation of the applicant, which may consist of interviews with neighbours, community workers, social workers, individuals who work or live with the applicant, spouse or common-law partner, former spouse or former common-law partner, dependants or whomever in the opinion of the chief firearms officer may provide information pertaining to whether the applicant is eligible under section 5 to hold a licence.


Note that none of the factors in section 5 is a BAR to the issuance of a licence (as they are in the US, e.g. criminal convictions, confinement to a mental health facility). So in point of fact, the discretion granted here allows for LESS restrictive treatment than in the US.

Notice of refusal to issue or revocation

72. (1) Subject to subsection (1.1), if a chief firearms officer decides to refuse to issue or to revoke a licence or authorization to transport or the Registrar decides to refuse to issue or to revoke a registration certificate, authorization to export or authorization to import, the chief firearms officer or Registrar shall give notice of the decision in the prescribed form to the applicant for or holder of the licence, registration certificate or authorization. ...

References to Provincial Court Judge
Reference to judge of refusal to issue or revocation, etc.

74. (1) Subject to subsection (2), where

(a) a chief firearms officer or the Registrar refuses to issue or revokes a licence, registration certificate, authorization to transport, authorization to export or authorization to import, ...

the applicant for or holder of the licence, registration certificate, authorization or approval may refer the matter to a provincial court judge in the territorial division in which the applicant or holder resides.

Decision by provincial court judge

76. On the hearing of a reference, the provincial court judge may, by order,

(a) confirm the decision of the chief firearms officer, Registrar or provincial minister;

(b) direct the chief firearms officer or Registrar to issue a licence, registration certificate or authorization or direct the provincial minister to approve a shooting club or shooting range; or

(c) cancel the revocation of the licence, registration certificate, authorization or approval or the decision of the chief firearms officer under section 67.

Appeal to superior court

77. (1) Subject to section 78, where a provincial court judge makes an order under paragraph 76(a), the applicant for or holder of the licence, registration certificate, authorization or approval, as the case may be, may appeal to the superior court against the order.

Appeal to court of appeal

80. An appeal to the court of appeal may, with leave of that court or of a judge of that court, be taken against a decision of a superior court under section 79 on any ground that involves a question of law alone.


And then of course anyone may apply for leave to appeal to the Supreme Court of Canada.

Does that all sound "subjective"?

The fundamental principle is:

A person is not eligible to hold a licence if it is desirable, in the interests of the safety of that or any other person, that the person not possess a firearm

and if a licence is denied or revoked on that basis, reasons must be given and the decision is subject to review. Judges are not "subjective"; they apply appropriate tests to facts of cases.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

i am just so sad by this story. i know that i am suppose to be angry at this man. seabeyond Jan 2012 #1
For fucks sake, we don't have cooties. PavePusher Jan 2012 #3
for fuck sake, lol..... it is a gun issue wish was not how i addressed the post seabeyond Jan 2012 #4
There's nothing wrong with expressing sympathy for the victim, or even AtheistCrusader Jan 2012 #56
that is how i see it. we have gotten to know him a tad better seabeyond Jan 2012 #64
Yea, but you've got guns and carry them in public. Hoyt Jan 2012 #26
Your record is still broken. AtheistCrusader Jan 2012 #66
MSM called him a "survivalist" rathern than face up to how he became a murderer... SteveW Jan 2012 #78
check out post 3. that is why i dont come into this forum. seabeyond Jan 2012 #81
But here you are again. DonP Jan 2012 #84
yes. and again... because in my book, i almost feel it rude not to reply to a person. seabeyond Jan 2012 #86
Okay, I respect your position... SteveW Jan 2012 #90
respectfully, i disagree. lol, i do mean respectfully. poster #3 GUESSED and MADE UP (as you are) seabeyond Jan 2012 #96
Okay, I understand now. Thanks for your reply. nt SteveW Jan 2012 #97
Please accept a collective apology DonP Jan 2012 #101
thank you. what i have found does it is, i read latest page seabeyond Jan 2012 #102
Thanks for the meaningless drive-by! Simo 1939_1940 Jan 2012 #2
I'm betting you didn't read the full article... ellisonz Jan 2012 #7
Well then, you lost that bet. Simo 1939_1940 Jan 2012 #8
You're being trite... ellisonz Jan 2012 #10
Post removed Post removed Jan 2012 #14
How should other posters take... ellisonz Jan 2012 #15
Post removed Post removed Jan 2012 #22
Sounds like you just don't like... ellisonz Jan 2012 #23
I don't have any problem with differing opinions. Simo 1939_1940 Jan 2012 #24
I'm missing the relevant issue? AtheistCrusader Jan 2012 #67
Without speculation.... We_Have_A_Problem Jan 2012 #68
did he have a restraining order against him? iverglas Jan 2012 #74
'obsession' difficult to define. AtheistCrusader Jan 2012 #76
but ya sure do know it when ya see it! iverglas Jan 2012 #93
I agree. AtheistCrusader Jan 2012 #104
but you would have to agree iverglas Jan 2012 #107
Yeah, so much for his being a "survivalist" as claimed in other forums. PavePusher Jan 2012 #5
"Fuck him." ellisonz Jan 2012 #19
Post removed Post removed Jan 2012 #21
No protect my right at all costs. ileus Jan 2012 #25
You'll see guys like him in any gun store in this country. And you guys want him to carry in public. Hoyt Jan 2012 #27
And who are "you guys"? Got a link to a thread where someone said that? friendly_iconoclast Jan 2012 #30
I'm sure he hangs out in a lot of gun stores too DonP Jan 2012 #32
it's really quite clear, is it not? iverglas Jan 2012 #40
*I* certainly wouldn't have wanted him to carry, as he was obviously deranged. friendly_iconoclast Jan 2012 #44
one intends the foreseeable consequences of one's actions iverglas Jan 2012 #52
Being in a custody dispute is not reason to have firearms possession taken away rl6214 Jan 2012 #54
there we go iverglas Jan 2012 #69
Your quote rl6214 Jan 2012 #70
maybe somebody could offer a logic/rhetoric course here iverglas Jan 2012 #71
Without reading that extremely long, extremely bory answer I'll just say rl6214 Jan 2012 #89
if you're not going to read what I post iverglas Jan 2012 #95
That would be prior restraint, and it's something generally frowned upon. friendly_iconoclast Jan 2012 #77
all prohibitions on firearms acquisition/possession are "prior restraint" iverglas Jan 2012 #82
Ah, but since it's now a protected right, a higher standard prevails friendly_iconoclast Jan 2012 #88
And sometimes, the precautions simply don't work. See one Michael Atherton, for example: friendly_iconoclast Jan 2012 #94
if what now? iverglas Jan 2012 #99
Where did he get his gun(s)? rl6214 Jan 2012 #53
why are you asking me? iverglas Jan 2012 #72
You posted the information about a shooting in Canada rl6214 Jan 2012 #87
pardon me, I hadn't realized the subject was changed iverglas Jan 2012 #91
I'd point out that firearms categories are not congruent in our two countries. friendly_iconoclast Jan 2012 #100
go right ahead iverglas Jan 2012 #103
I've no inherent objection to mandatory licensing, as it's used here in Massachusetts. friendly_iconoclast Jan 2012 #106
please don't put words in my mouth iverglas Jan 2012 #108
I'm sorry, but including "risk factors" as a criteria is entirely too subjective. friendly_iconoclast Jan 2012 #113
well, you may need to understand administrative law better iverglas Jan 2012 #114
You should pick a better class of gun stores to hang about in. friendly_iconoclast Jan 2012 #34
You mean mid-20's in-shape white guys? We_Have_A_Problem Jan 2012 #35
dosen't look like anyone i've seen in any gun stores around here rl6214 Jan 2012 #55
Well yeah... We_Have_A_Problem Jan 2012 #57
Project much? AtheistCrusader Jan 2012 #63
Well at least he took one of the "Jack-booted thugs" with him. Buzz cook Jan 2012 #6
a real person iverglas Jan 2012 #85
So in otherwords, words to the wise would be rl6214 Jan 2012 #9
What does this "current events" post have to do with the topics of the Guns discussion group? slackmaster Jan 2012 #11
I would post discussion questions... ellisonz Jan 2012 #12
Yes, it *is* telling. It tells me that veterans need better aftercare. friendly_iconoclast Jan 2012 #17
Oy Vey ellisonz Jan 2012 #18
You know it's possible to post questions or opinion AtheistCrusader Jan 2012 #58
you say this, à propos of ... iverglas Jan 2012 #73
This is a continuing conversation between myself and the poster. AtheistCrusader Jan 2012 #75
A discussion question... ellisonz Jan 2012 #79
Just to point out billh58 Jan 2012 #48
The post would be a much better contribution if it included even a minimal editorial remark in OP slackmaster Jan 2012 #49
That may be true, billh58 Jan 2012 #80
People with strong views on any subject tend to be the ones most likely to engage in discussions slackmaster Jan 2012 #83
In political science, the term for "strong views" is "militancy," like stuffing envelopes. nt SteveW Jan 2012 #92
I'll beg to differ iverglas Jan 2012 #105
Yes, you are billh58 Jan 2012 #109
I'm heralding a return to the days of yore iverglas Jan 2012 #110
The "Doesn't Get It" award goes to ... Straw Man Jan 2012 #13
And a shotgun was used, not a handgun. The law was irrelevant. friendly_iconoclast Jan 2012 #16
Not wholly irrelevant, but largely so Euromutt Jan 2012 #111
Stop bringing up facts like that We_Have_A_Problem Jan 2012 #112
I'd like to have a saiga 12. ileus Jan 2012 #20
Why do members of "gun culture" always covet guns killers like this guy use? Hoyt Jan 2012 #28
Still trying to get that moral panic going, eh? friendly_iconoclast Jan 2012 #29
Just wondering why poster wants one of those guns so bad, and why in hell he would post it here. Hoyt Jan 2012 #31
Admittedly, his timing could have been better. friendly_iconoclast Jan 2012 #33
I heard "high-powered rifle" DissedByBush Jan 2012 #43
Probably because.... We_Have_A_Problem Jan 2012 #36
That's the kind of gunner I know-- talking about guns and crud over victim's grave? Hoyt Jan 2012 #41
Like i said.... We_Have_A_Problem Jan 2012 #98
I'd like to have one while they're still down 200 bucks from late last year. ileus Jan 2012 #38
And they are popular among those who pose in front of mirror before shooting a woman. Hoyt Jan 2012 #42
And computers are popular amongst those who trade child pornography, run botnets... friendly_iconoclast Jan 2012 #45
But I did not go shopping for computer used upon report of awful crime. Hoyt Jan 2012 #46
gun killer ....was that his Native American name? ileus Jan 2012 #47
Post removed Post removed Jan 2012 #51
It's not very nice of you to call out jpak like that petronius Jan 2012 #39
oops. lol good catch. ileus Jan 2012 #61
naw...we've been talking AR'S for coyote hunting. oh and trading... ileus Jan 2012 #65
The desire to own something does not mean you "covet" it. rl6214 Jan 2012 #59
I live where two National Forests come together. AtheistCrusader Jan 2012 #60
May I suggest Fourier Jan 2012 #37
What was that number again? ;) n/t discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2012 #50
Should probably replace Bill Wade with someone that has two brain cells to rub together. AtheistCrusader Jan 2012 #62
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