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iverglas

(38,549 posts)
21. the description in #10
Fri Jan 6, 2012, 04:09 PM
Jan 2012

refers to a 20-round magazine. Those are prohibited in Canada. I imagine the thing takes smaller magazines, but thought I'd point that out.

If you read the regulations, you will notice under

PART 2
RESTRICTED FIREARMS

that AR-15s are restricted, for instance (available only to licensed sports shooters and collectors with restricted firearms licenses).

I'm sure you'll be shocked and appalled at all sorts of things there.

Efforts to date to have the Ruger Mini-14 included in that list have been unsuccessful.


I'll reproduce a bit of the decision of the Court of Appeal that I had linked to (since no one is likely to look at it), for the benefit of anyone in the interested reading public.

34 The Act obliges the provincial court to hear all relevant evidence presented by both the applicant and the Registrar. It is clear that the provincial court is to engage in its own fact finding process. That is why it is described as a reference and not an appeal from the Registrar’s decision. Nor is it a hearing de novo, since the Registrar has not held a hearing. Clearly the legislative intent is that the provincial court is to find its own facts and need give no deference to any facts recited in the reasons of the Registrar.

35 However, having done that, s. 75(3) of the Act directs the provincial court to decide, in light of the facts it has found, if the applicant has satisfied it that the Registrar’s refusal was “not justified”. That is, the applicant must do more than show that, given the facts found, the decision was wrong. Rather, the provincial court must be satisfied that the refusal was not justified. In my view this reflects the legislative intent that the provincial court accord deference to the Registrar’s decision. I say this for several reasons.

36 The first is the particular language of the Act. The pertinent definition of “justification” in Black’s Law Dictionary, 8th ed., is “a lawful or sufficient reason for one’s acts or omissions.” That is, a decision is not justified if there is no sufficient reason for it. As well, the Supreme Court of Canada has linked the deferential standard of reasonableness to the concept of justification. In Dunsmuir v. New Brunswick, 2008 SCC 9 (CanLII), 2008 SCC 9, [2008] 1 S.C.R. 190 at para. 47, the court describes the qualities that make a decision reasonable and makes clear that justification is a key aspect of reasonableness. Thus I think the language of s. 75(3) of the Act directs the provincial court to apply a deferential standard of review to the Registrar’s decision itself. The provincial court is to test that decision against the facts it has found. It is not to determine if it agrees with the decision, but whether it has been satisfied by the applicant that the decision is not reasonably defenceable. This mandates deference.

37 A deferential approach is also supported by the undoubted specialized expertise of the Registrar in administering the complex firearms registration regime. That regime encompasses both the legislation and the relevant subordinate legislation, including S.O.R./98-462. In addition, the nature of the questions of law that arise for the Registrar is compatible with a standard of deference. As in this case, where the question is the meaning of “variant” in the relevant Order in Council, these questions are within a very specialized area of the legal system and have limited general application.

38 In my view, the deferential standard of review to be applied by the provincial court to the Registrar’s refusal is best described as one of reasonableness. That notion is well known in judicial review of administrative decisions, and that is, of course, what is going on here. A new label would simply complicate an area of law which the Supreme Court in Dunsmuir has said should be simplified. The provincial court’s task is not to assess the process used by the Registrar about which it may know very little. Rather it is to evaluate the Registrar’s decision in the context of the facts it has found to decide if the applicant has satisfied it that the decision does not fall “within a range of possible, acceptable outcomes which are defenceable in respect of the facts and law”: Dunsmuir, at para. 47. It is in this sense that the provincial court should apply a standard of reasonableness.

39 Turning to this case, I agree with the Superior Court that the Ontario Court of Justice did not apply this standard of review to the Registrar’s refusal. It concluded that the applicant’s firearm, the AP80, could not be a variant of the AK-47 because it was a semi-automatic weapon, not an automatic one. The court did not evaluate whether, in light of the fact that the AP80 is the same weapon as the AK-22 (which is expressly declared by the regulation to be a variant of the AK-47), the decision that the AP80 is a variant of the AK-47 is within the range of defenceable outcomes. In my view, had the Ontario Court of Justice done so, it would have confirmed the Registrar’s decision.


(Not the best reasons I've ever read - "defenceable"?? (and I absolutely despise the use of the word "regime" in place of the good English word "scheme", now replaced by reverse franglais in Canada and at the international level) ... Dunsmuir is the gold standard for judicial review of administrative decisions, and I'd have to delve into whether it's being properly applied here ... nor is the legislation itself maybe the most perfectly drafted -- but I'd have to do more research, including into the very particular subject of these kinds of cases, which I suspect are scarce as hen's teeth, before I could pass further judgment on it.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

Glad they are catching criminals with their registry. Glassunion Jan 2012 #1
I just noticed this actually called for reply iverglas Jan 2012 #49
I agree. Glassunion Jan 2012 #54
in theory ... iverglas Jan 2012 #73
Yeah - that's fucking intelligent.... n/t We_Have_A_Problem Jan 2012 #2
And some propane tanks look like atom bombs JustABozoOnThisBus Jan 2012 #3
+1 on the beer. nt Remmah2 Jan 2012 #4
There are a lot of people that hunt and eat squirrel and rabbit rl6214 Jan 2012 #8
Yes, if they want it killed, tenderized, and shredded JustABozoOnThisBus Jan 2012 #26
Someone forgot to tell Solomon... We_Have_A_Problem Jan 2012 #18
Truely Orwellian.... PavePusher Jan 2012 #5
Canada is not a totalitarian state. ellisonz Jan 2012 #35
Post removed Post removed Jan 2012 #36
"carry weapons near our elected officials and wage war against government" PavePusher Jan 2012 #50
Don't tell me all those "milita" groups are training to fight Canadians. ellisonz Jan 2012 #51
well ... iverglas Jan 2012 #52
I'd like to apologize to Canada for the rampant anti-Canadianism that is perpetuated in this country ellisonz Jan 2012 #98
sniff iverglas Jan 2012 #101
I've heard Canada is "a lot like the U.S." This may be an indication... SteveW Jan 2012 #89
ah, my little hometown newspaper iverglas Jan 2012 #6
That's right, the courts are absolutly correct and absolutely absolute in their decisions. Remmah2 Jan 2012 #9
if you say so iverglas Jan 2012 #12
The Courts never change their rulings... ellisonz Jan 2012 #37
They look like an AK, but function totally differently. X_Digger Jan 2012 #15
the description in #10 iverglas Jan 2012 #21
I'd love to know whether the applicant's counsel tried to explain.. X_Digger Jan 2012 #28
just to point out iverglas Jan 2012 #31
So fed cabinet -> court -> court.. X_Digger Jan 2012 #33
have a look at the decision iverglas Jan 2012 #34
My God, civilized government... ellisonz Jan 2012 #38
so then, you are planning to leave Hawaii for Canada Tuesday Afternoon Jan 2012 #64
Such hostility... ellisonz Jan 2012 #86
passive agressive behavior tends to bring that out in people that are paying attention. Tuesday Afternoon Jan 2012 #87
Well, my last girlfriend looked like Marilyn Monroe. Really. She did. nt SteveW Jan 2012 #90
Great example of legislation by fiat. The GG says it's so, therefore it's so. slackmaster Jan 2012 #23
snork iverglas Jan 2012 #27
I just wanted to add... discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2012 #32
22's are scary too... ileus Jan 2012 #7
This is sofa king stupid my brain hurts. (Corrected) Glassunion Jan 2012 #10
This message was self-deleted by its author TPaine7 Jan 2012 #11
snork iverglas Jan 2012 #14
This message was self-deleted by its author Tuesday Afternoon Jan 2012 #67
good god, get a clue iverglas Jan 2012 #13
Oops... you are correct. Glassunion Jan 2012 #20
that's cool iverglas Jan 2012 #22
No, no, that's a JONI Mitchell AK-22. Now she is PROHIBITED, too. EZ. nt SteveW Jan 2012 #91
Canada has a more sensible approach to guns and health care than we do. In fact, most countries do. Hoyt Jan 2012 #16
Feel free to move out at any time rl6214 Jan 2012 #17
We should all pitch in and buy him a bus ticket. n/t PavePusher Jan 2012 #25
ah, love it or leave it! iverglas Jan 2012 #29
Awe come on, you'll take him won't you? rl6214 Jan 2012 #30
Only because they stop Sarah Palin at the border... ellisonz Jan 2012 #39
from what I understand gejohnston Jan 2012 #46
ba-zinga. Tuesday Afternoon Jan 2012 #78
she would indeed iverglas Jan 2012 #79
Most of ours probably do too gejohnston Jan 2012 #85
NRA royalties? nt SteveW Jan 2012 #92
perhaps, America should follow suit and make entry to our country more restrictive Tuesday Afternoon Jan 2012 #65
Now, now- don't you know that's only for more "progressive" nations? friendly_iconoclast Jan 2012 #68
funny how that works, isn't it. ironic, even. Tuesday Afternoon Jan 2012 #69
if entry to the Canada were actually more restricted iverglas Jan 2012 #74
you said it Tuesday Afternoon Jan 2012 #76
there's no point there iverglas Jan 2012 #80
actually Tuesday Afternoon Jan 2012 #81
That sounds so right wing of you guys. Hoyt Jan 2012 #44
Good Grief fightthegoodfightnow Jan 2012 #56
Good grief, I was a toddler in the 60's rl6214 Jan 2012 #58
so you haven't heard iverglas Jan 2012 #63
criticizing it is one thing...threatening to leave it is another thing entirely. Tuesday Afternoon Jan 2012 #66
The point is that "if you don't like it you can leave" is a juvenile comment... DanTex Jan 2012 #70
! Tuesday Afternoon Jan 2012 #71
and now for the actual point iverglas Jan 2012 #75
and in turn Tuesday Afternoon Jan 2012 #77
I do it all the time rl6214 Jan 2012 #88
So would I be correct DragonBorn Jan 2012 #19
wouldn't it really be better iverglas Jan 2012 #24
They hate you for your freedom. n/t ellisonz Jan 2012 #40
and our poutine iverglas Jan 2012 #42
I love poutine. Glassunion Jan 2012 #59
Maybe DragonBorn Jan 2012 #41
how it goes iverglas Jan 2012 #43
I'm a bit confused DragonBorn Jan 2012 #45
licensing vs registration iverglas Jan 2012 #47
Thanks for you repy DragonBorn Jan 2012 #96
and see post 73 iverglas Jan 2012 #97
But if one *is* familiar with guns, the Valmets are clearly AK derivatives... friendly_iconoclast Jan 2012 #48
the thing is iverglas Jan 2012 #53
They were banned because they *look* like AK-47s... friendly_iconoclast Jan 2012 #55
rofl Tuesday Afternoon Jan 2012 #82
just for info, that would be the Ruger Mini-14 iverglas Jan 2012 #83
if the ruling gejohnston Jan 2012 #60
My wife and children are Candian. Atypical Liberal Jan 2012 #94
they come from ... Candia? iverglas Jan 2012 #100
I had an intresting experence with canadian firearms law two years ago. oneshooter Jan 2012 #57
Wow! Glassunion Jan 2012 #61
"a smoking cessation device" iverglas Jan 2012 #84
I don't know. Glassunion Jan 2012 #93
customs is a funny thing iverglas Jan 2012 #62
In Hawaii, agricultural inspection is taken very seriously. ellisonz Jan 2012 #99
Just proves there are bureaucratic morons in both countries MicaelS Jan 2012 #95
O Canada Tuesday Afternoon Jan 2012 #72
Latest Discussions»Issue Forums»Gun Control & RKBA»Canada bans .22 rifle bec...»Reply #21