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ellisonz

(27,776 posts)
69. Done.
Mon Jan 9, 2012, 11:16 PM
Jan 2012

Madison clearly argues against a standing army unless necessary to repel a foreign invader and that a Militia should be formed in case of either that scenario or insurrection. He affirms the reasonable nature of checks and balances in relation to Federal authority over the states and notes the flaws inherent in allowing the states to grow too far apart in their laws and regulations. Madison's argument is in defense of the Constitution and against the notion that the people are not adequately represented by the republican model. He's explaining why the Articles of Confederacy have been insufficient in providing for a national defense of the federated states. He's portending the Civil War or a likewise insurrection and wishfully hoping that it should not come to that because it would be so destructive because the Militias will be contained. He hopes that if insurrection or invasion were to occur and a State were to be compromised that once the insurrection/invader was put down that there would be no permanent occupation.

As it was, and as you've seen in 1792 the Militias were placed under the direct authority of the President of the United States, and the expectation was that in event of war that this would be the protocol such as to provide for a united defense rather than individual states defending only their own. He is against a permanent large standing army.

The only refuge left for those who prophesy the downfall of the State governments is the visionary supposition that the federal government may previously accumulate a military force for the projects of ambition. The reasonings contained in these papers must have been employed to little purpose indeed, if it could be necessary now to disprove the reality of this danger. That the people and the States should, for a sufficient period of time, elect an uninterupted succession of men ready to betray both; that the traitors should, throughout this period, uniformly and systematically pursue some fixed plan for the extension of the military establishment; that the governments and the people of the States should silently and patiently behold the gathering storm, and continue to supply the materials, until it should be prepared to burst on their own heads, must appear to every one more like the incoherent dreams of a delirious jealousy, or the misjudged exaggerations of a counterfeit zeal, than like the sober apprehensions of genuine patriotism. Extravagant as the supposition is, let it however be made. Let a regular army, fully equal to the resources of the country, be formed; and let it be entirely at the devotion of the federal government; still it would not be going too far to say, that the State governments, with the people on their side, would be able to repel the danger.


If you are suggesting we seriously reduce the Defense Department budget, fund the National Guard better, and institute stricter gun control to prevent an internal uprising and to "insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity," I am all for it. But this current situation, which President William Jefferson Clinton described as "madness," is unacceptable not consistent with an tea leaves reading of the Federalist Papers or the Constitution. It was for this reason that Antonin Scalia and his fellow Justices turned to this nebulous concept:

The prefatory clause comports with the Court’s interpretation of the operative clause. The “militia” comprised all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense. The Antifederalists feared that the Federal Government would disarm the people in order to disable this citizens’ militia, enabling a politicized standing army or a select militia to rule. The response was to deny Congress power to abridge the ancient right of individuals to keep and bear arms, so that the ideal of a citizens’ militia would be preserved. Pp. 22–28.
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Why do we care about what "the Antifederalists feared"when the real issue is what the practical balance of the Second Amendment constitutes? I don't think it means unlimited ownership of arms of whatever type one may please by any measure of the law. Scalia is engaging in mystification from this point on out; there is no "individual right" to the keeping or beating of arms and because this proclamation is so inconsistent with the actual text of the Second Amendment, much less the principles of Liberty, he has to caution:

2) Like most rights, the Second Amendment right is not unlimited. It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose: For example, concealed weapons prohibitions have been upheld under the Amendment or state analogues. The Court’s opinion should not be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms. Miller’s holding that the sorts of weapons protected are those “in common use at the time” finds support in the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of dangerous and unusual weapons. Pp. 54–56.


This is chickenshit justice; this is right-wing Supreme Court judges throwing an ideological bone to the NRA and friends by engaging in statements not previously made and not pertinent to the case through the very judicial activism that he decries. Fuck Antonin Scalia.


California National Guardsmen - Los Angeles, 1992.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

A common question to both sides... [View all] discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2012 OP
is there a question in there? Tuesday Afternoon Jan 2012 #1
not in my mind discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2012 #2
you are asking for one's personal definition of the word militia? Tuesday Afternoon Jan 2012 #3
While the militia... discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2012 #4
but, in my mind Tuesday Afternoon Jan 2012 #5
This is precisely my point. discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2012 #6
Definition of "militia" is clear. And, it is not not a bunch of right wingers living in a compound. Hoyt Jan 2012 #7
Discounting.... discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2012 #8
The definition of militia... discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2012 #11
Sorry, but you left out the "well regulated" part. Hoyt Jan 2012 #12
Thank you... discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2012 #13
The founders were a bunch of smart white guys who owned slaves Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #58
regarding the Founders discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2012 #60
What does my use of the subjunctive have to do with prescience. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #73
Yup discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2012 #84
Well... discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2012 #114
Let me guess, you slept through history class? Spoonman Jan 2012 #87
Let me guess, you slept through english comprehension. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #89
Feel free to continue Spoonman Jan 2012 #90
If only your "heroes" were around today Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #106
the term has been around for gejohnston Jan 2012 #108
About 100 years. OK Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #112
It has been well documented here what "well regulated" means and it is not what you think rl6214 Jan 2012 #14
Documented by right wing gun groups? There are plenty of scholars who disagree Hoyt Jan 2012 #15
Decided correctly in your mind is the way you want it, not the way the law really is rl6214 Jan 2012 #16
And, the recent decisions haven't accomplished a think in Chicago or DC. Hoyt Jan 2012 #20
That certain local governments fail to comply with the letter and spirit of court decisions ObamaFTW2012 Jan 2012 #22
Apparently the majority in Chicago and DC don't think so. Hoyt Jan 2012 #24
Good thing ObamaFTW2012 Jan 2012 #28
Chicago and DC don't control the nation rl6214 Jan 2012 #29
"Apparently the majority in Chicago and DC don't think so." beevul Jan 2012 #40
Lol, check this.. X_Digger Jan 2012 #26
they think Citizens United v FEC was decided correctly too gejohnston Jan 2012 #18
Well, at least you acknowledge that the SC screws up as they've done recently Hoyt Jan 2012 #19
have fun with that gejohnston Jan 2012 #23
Yes, the ACLU... discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2012 #27
When the situation warrants it, ObamaFTW2012 Jan 2012 #17
We'll buy your interpretation for a moment -- then, leave your guns at home until called. Hoyt Jan 2012 #21
The defense of freedom, ObamaFTW2012 Jan 2012 #25
Well, 96% of population does not feel need to strap a gun on to venture out. Hoyt Jan 2012 #31
As long as they don't try to stop the other 4% (assuming your "96%" is accurate) ObamaFTW2012 Jan 2012 #32
We have the right to do a lot of things, but shouldn't -- like carrying guns in public. Hoyt Jan 2012 #33
Whether or not you consider it something we should not do We_Have_A_Problem Jan 2012 #37
Says you ObamaFTW2012 Jan 2012 #38
What i find to be humorous We_Have_A_Problem Jan 2012 #39
Once again, a pro-gunner trying to compare his poor, pitiful gun plight to THE Civil Rights Movement Hoyt Jan 2012 #48
I am not comparing the defense of my right to be armed in public, ObamaFTW2012 Jan 2012 #51
Actually, I would not have defended a cross burning. Hoyt Jan 2012 #63
Yeah, maybe ObamaFTW2012 Jan 2012 #64
I hear you. But would rather folks don't shoot it out in streets. o Hoyt Jan 2012 #65
I don't want shoot outs in the streets ObamaFTW2012 Jan 2012 #82
Really? ellisonz Jan 2012 #66
Correct ObamaFTW2012 Jan 2012 #81
"Well Regulated" - Without the "Hoyt" spin Spoonman Jan 2012 #41
Define working-order in this context of firearms regulation. n/t ellisonz Jan 2012 #67
I’m certain you feel as though your question Spoonman Jan 2012 #86
I'm certain your patronization doesn't reveal your true character. ellisonz Jan 2012 #92
since women are now allowed to serve in the military Tuesday Afternoon Jan 2012 #76
In UK and USSR gejohnston Jan 2012 #80
We are a country of laws E6-B Jan 2012 #117
Care to share it with us then? jeepnstein Jan 2012 #118
What part of my family isn't my country. ileus Jan 2012 #9
? discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2012 #10
What does "well regulated" mean in your opinion? ellisonz Jan 2012 #30
"well regulated" discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2012 #34
So then we should have effective regulation? n/t ellisonz Jan 2012 #42
Did that point even ruffle your hair as it flew over your head? n/t We_Have_A_Problem Jan 2012 #43
To rephrase the 2A: discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2012 #44
Means exactly what it says - "well regulated" ellisonz Jan 2012 #46
Your link discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2012 #47
Read the whole thing and tell me what your impression is... ellisonz Jan 2012 #52
In the Swiss model gejohnston Jan 2012 #55
I think this is honestly closer to what the Founders meant... ellisonz Jan 2012 #68
That was the idea to have such an army gejohnston Jan 2012 #70
... ellisonz Jan 2012 #71
bold does not improve gejohnston Jan 2012 #78
Depends how you define people... ellisonz Jan 2012 #79
Most of them were West Germany gejohnston Jan 2012 #85
I'll get back to you on that as well as my reading of Stevens, et al... discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2012 #56
Done. ellisonz Jan 2012 #69
I guess you missed this bit, eh? X_Digger Jan 2012 #72
Your argument is incongruous. ellisonz Jan 2012 #74
No, your whining about 'well-regulated' has been dealt with. X_Digger Jan 2012 #83
the people discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2012 #88
" A healthy fear of the people by the government yields freedom." - or Tyranny. ellisonz Jan 2012 #91
How Machiavellian of you to provide that quote ;) discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2012 #93
At the same time the Constitution clearly makes treason a punishable offense... ellisonz Jan 2012 #94
"Can we not add to that list?" discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2012 #96
Known member of a known hate group or criminal organization... ellisonz Jan 2012 #97
Sure... discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2012 #98
So you oppose gang injunctions? ellisonz Jan 2012 #99
I'm with the supreme court in Chicago v. Morales X_Digger Jan 2012 #102
I disagree - their activity in and of itself is intimidating conduct. ellisonz Jan 2012 #103
*gasp* you agree with Scalia?!? X_Digger Jan 2012 #104
Twisting. n/t ellisonz Jan 2012 #105
In a word... discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2012 #113
so you want to base a regulation gejohnston Jan 2012 #100
You're saying opposition to arming... ellisonz Jan 2012 #101
and who defines it gejohnston Jan 2012 #107
Not even going to try to unpack the meaning/facts of any of that...n/t ellisonz Jan 2012 #109
simply pointing out gejohnston Jan 2012 #110
Well... ellisonz Jan 2012 #111
To further elaborate... discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2012 #45
regulate Tuesday Afternoon Jan 2012 #53
Agreed. n/t discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2012 #59
Post removed Post removed Jan 2012 #35
Milita means an irregular group of civilians voluntarily DWC Jan 2012 #36
heh. irregular, nice choice of adjective there Tuesday Afternoon Jan 2012 #75
So, why doesn't the Constitution start with, "We the militia . . . . ." instead of "we the people." Hoyt Jan 2012 #49
Because the PEOPLE compose the militia. So, why don't... discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2012 #50
People are a set, (or group) Tuesday Afternoon Jan 2012 #54
All squirrels are mammals.. X_Digger Jan 2012 #57
Are squirrels in the militia? Sounds to me it's "people" the way you HAVE TO DEFINE IT Hoyt Jan 2012 #61
I bet that point didn't even ruffle your hair as it went right by. n/t X_Digger Jan 2012 #62
Hopefully, we'll get a Supreme Court in the next few years that is not so right wing. -- Tuesday Afternoon Jan 2012 #77
It's all one big right-wing conspiracy... ellisonz Jan 2012 #95
" I ask sir, what is a militia? DWC Jan 2012 #115
For a modern spin: discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2012 #116
Latest Discussions»Issue Forums»Gun Control & RKBA»A common question to both...»Reply #69