Gun Control & RKBA

Straw Man

(6,955 posts)

170. Are you asking for a positive verification of mental health...

Fri Jan 13, 2012, 06:45 PM

Jan 2012

...before one is allowed to purchase a firearm? A negative verification -- i.e. person has never been found to be unhealthy -- is already in place via NICS. Even the Illinois FOID (Firearm Owners Identification) that allows the bearer to purchase firearms requires only the negative verification that NICS does.

You appear to be calling for a "Certified Not Mentally Ill" card to be carried by firearms buyers and checked by sellers at points of sale. Would this be authorized at the state level or at the federal level? What do you envision as the lifespan of such a card, i.e. how often should the bearer be re-certified? What type of mental health professionals would be empowered to make this certification? Would there be a standard battery of tests? What sanctioning body would determine the validity of said tests? Would there be an appeal process?

I'm sure you realize that this scenario would be ripe for abuse by mental health professionals who may have an ideological bias against firearms ownership. How would you protect the rights of applicants against such potential abuse?

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Family Blames Gun-Seller for Murderous Rampage [View all] The Straight Story Jan 2012 OP

well duh...there's a law suit lottery to be won here. ileus Jan 2012 #1

Yeah, crappy psych analysis is done in this Group all the time. nt SteveW Jan 2012 #98

Did you know that having to stand in line is grounds for negligence? X_Digger Jan 2012 #2

A perfect example of why every state should pass Spoonman Jan 2012 #3

It would make people think twice about the shotgun approach to frivelous law suits. Remmah2 Jan 2012 #15

in theory it sounds good pipoman Jan 2012 #79

Amen to that !!! DWC Jan 2012 #95

How would it level the playing field? pipoman Jan 2012 #127

That's just ambulance-chasing. The suit has no merit whatsoever. slackmaster Jan 2012 #4

Just shows how the system is ineffective... ellisonz Jan 2012 #24

What would you propose to prevent someone who isn't legally disqualified from buying a gun... slackmaster Jan 2012 #30

The Justice system already plays that role... ellisonz Jan 2012 #32

in most states gejohnston Jan 2012 #43

What wrong with it? We_Have_A_Problem Jan 2012 #87

Yes, it is called "due process," as in the 5th Amendment. SteveW Jan 2012 #100

Should we have to be interviewed to exercise other Constitutional rights? Atypical Liberal Jan 2012 #85

It almost sounds like you're proposing police interviews and psych evaluations for someone to own a Wistful Vista Jan 2012 #113

Was he adjudicated mentally ill? MicaelS Jan 2012 #5

Why didn't his family or doctor report it? Remmah2 Jan 2012 #16

I too, accurately diagnose people's mental health at a glance. AtheistCrusader Jan 2012 #6

Hey, what's the problem? Bill Frist diagnosed Terri Schiavo without ever even SEEING her! Wistful Vista Jan 2012 #115

I find the title somewhat inflammatory. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #7

"Might teach sellers of guns to be more responsible." Glassunion Jan 2012 #8

Well, ST has no problem diagnosing mental illness based on internet posts.. X_Digger Jan 2012 #9

Apparently it was pretty obvious with this guy Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #10

What if you were a legal seller? ileus Jan 2012 #11

I'm not following you? Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #12

And if you refused to sell a gun to someone legally qualified you could be sued for that. GreenStormCloud Jan 2012 #13

Jeez GSC, now peddler is a pejorative. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #21

Peddler Glassunion Jan 2012 #36

Hey, you are absolutely right. My mistake. Shopkeepers. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #37

A merchant has the right to refuse service to anyone at his discretion Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #27

You miss the point. PavePusher Jan 2012 #17

I don't think so. Glassunion Jan 2012 #20

My questionnaire would be a follow-up Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #22

Lol, what about other 'potentially dangerous, especially in the wrong hands' substances / items, eh? X_Digger Jan 2012 #28

Those things have already been prescribed by a doctor Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #40

But each item is 'potentially dangerous, especially in the wrong hands'- your criteria, not mine. X_Digger Jan 2012 #46

Are you being intentionally obtuse? Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #49

So the seller of the 'dangerous item' has no onus to perform an assessment, yes? X_Digger Jan 2012 #55

My mind is a work in progress Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #59

Perhaps you should wait until you've moved past the design stage.... We_Have_A_Problem Jan 2012 #88

Such a charmer aren't you WHAP? Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #90

Your ideas are not being thoughtlessy dismissed We_Have_A_Problem Jan 2012 #91

So I need a doctor's approval to exercise a right? jeepnstein Jan 2012 #96

"So I need a doctor's approval to exercise a right?" Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #97

So the 2nd Amendment isn't really the law of the land? jeepnstein Jan 2012 #130

I'm afraid that you are quite ignorant on the subject of psychology. Glassunion Jan 2012 #34

My knowledge or "ignorance" of psychology is irrelevant. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #38

Personally, I would force NICS compliance by the states. Glassunion Jan 2012 #92

Thanks for a constructive post. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #104

Loughner slipped through many cracks. Glassunion Jan 2012 #108

Regarding the MMPI test Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #111

Actually its pretty damned relevant. We_Have_A_Problem Jan 2012 #94

Actually I do. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #99

The law requires a form 4473 be filled out by the purchaser rl6214 Jan 2012 #29

Well, isn't that brilliant? Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #39

I asked a simple question, why the snark? rl6214 Jan 2012 #47

No snark intended. I'm pointing out the flaw in the system. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #52

If he lies on the form, the subsequent check will pick it up. Straw Man Jan 2012 #56

How about psychological screening by mental health professionals. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #58

Are you asking for a positive verification of mental health... Straw Man Jan 2012 #170

You bring up excellent points. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #171

One more question. Straw Man Jan 2012 #180

Who would pay for this evaluation? Would it be necessary for each purchase, or... Marengo Jan 2012 #82

It takes years of training in addition to medical school to qualify a person to identify a paranoid slackmaster Jan 2012 #31

This is not the responsibility of gun dealers. Atypical Liberal Jan 2012 #86

A complete circumvention of the 5th... SteveW Jan 2012 #101

How could they be more responsible within the laws? ObamaFTW2012 Jan 2012 #18

New laws/rules. Read my other posts. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #42

I didn't write the headline, hell I don't even read what I post The Straight Story Jan 2012 #19

I never suggested that you wrote the headline. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #23

The system as is undoubtedly invades our rights. She should have had a gun too... ellisonz Jan 2012 #25

More nonsense from you ProgressiveProfessor Jan 2012 #48

OK more nonsense from me Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #50

Fairly straight forward ProgressiveProfessor Jan 2012 #61

My CHL in Texas covers that. oneshooter Jan 2012 #62

What prevents a forgery from being used? ProgressiveProfessor Jan 2012 #63

Don't know. They are just like a Texas DL oneshooter Jan 2012 #65

Works for me ProgressiveProfessor Jan 2012 #69

"voting, free press, or assembly? They are on the same level" Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #67

Yes, they are. beevul Jan 2012 #68

Serious bad analogy... ProgressiveProfessor Jan 2012 #70

Oh sorry. My mistake again. Meant airline pilots. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #72

Actually you are still wrong there ProgressiveProfessor Jan 2012 #74

" My answer to the problem is to first enforce and standardize the laws we have" Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #134

The general answer to violations of the law is punishment ProgressiveProfessor Jan 2012 #137

"Brings a warm feeling to my heart." Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #144

More specious comments ProgressiveProfessor Jan 2012 #148

Hardly a capricious system, but rather a smart one. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #162

Using guns to shoot and kill people is not evil in and of itself. We_Have_A_Problem Jan 2012 #165

Of course they need to be able to defend themselves. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #166

Who the fuck are YOU to decide what the answer is? We_Have_A_Problem Jan 2012 #167

Did I ever suggest that it wasn't their call? Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #169

I have slight issue with the data presented Glassunion Jan 2012 #168

I always have slight issues with data too Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #173

"I wish them luck." Simo 1939_1940 Jan 2012 #150

And if you asked a lot of people back in the 50s and 60s.... We_Have_A_Problem Jan 2012 #154

I'm sure that mindset still exists in Texas and much of the south. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #157

WOW! We_Have_A_Problem Jan 2012 #158

Are you suggesting it doesn't still exist? Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #161

I think you missed the point We_Have_A_Problem Jan 2012 #163

I didn't miss a thing WHAP Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #174

Most every state that has concealed carry requires a license rl6214 Jan 2012 #129

What am I doing to get it done? Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #133

Your "common sense" is not the same as my common sense rl6214 Jan 2012 #191

Fortunately, I wasn't counting on you or any other individual Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #192

Ain't that the truth... rl6214 Jan 2012 #195

With a gun one might be able to kill a few dozen people. PavePusher Jan 2012 #84

Improve system by funding (if you can afford it) the bureaucracy to pass-on mental cases. SteveW Jan 2012 #102

Nonsense Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #106

BIG difference between.... We_Have_A_Problem Jan 2012 #109

Now you are being silly Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #119

"Poor people can't afford guns... Too busy putting food on the table and no valuables to protect" X_Digger Jan 2012 #120

How about their lives? Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #123

The poor are more likely to be in neighborhoods with high crime and little opportunity to leave.. X_Digger Jan 2012 #126

You need to chill, especially if you carry a gun. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #132

Your suggestions are specious and not possible under our current legal structure ProgressiveProfessor Jan 2012 #138

I expected better from you. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #142

I am clearly discussing gun onwership in a self defense and urban context ProgressiveProfessor Jan 2012 #146

Brilliant! Just fucking brilliant! Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #147

Empowering individuals is indeed quite progressive ProgressiveProfessor Jan 2012 #149

Sorry, but encouraging people to carry guns is not empowering them Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #185

sorry gejohnston Jan 2012 #187

Providing people with options and knowledge is indeed progressie ProgressiveProfessor Jan 2012 #194

And now you insinuate mental instability. Speaking of "engage in insults"... n/t PavePusher Jan 2012 #140

WTF are you insinuating? What mental instability? Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #141

Your words: "You need to chill, especially if you carry a gun." n/t PavePusher Jan 2012 #151

You equate anger with mental instability? Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #160

Hahahahah! It was you that made the insinuation.... PavePusher Jan 2012 #181

No my friend, you connected those little dots all on your own Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #184

You don't have the power to make me angry. X_Digger Jan 2012 #189

Very glad to hear that. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #190

"I guess poor is a relative term." -- fucking duh. X_Digger Jan 2012 #188

No, sir. SteveW Jan 2012 #117

What is more important to you? Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #145

You can try to be more respectful than "patsy for the NRA and extreme RW..." SteveW Jan 2012 #193

No. If you want it, you get to help pay for it. n/t PavePusher Jan 2012 #139

If and when I buy a gun I'll be happy to pay my share. Why not? Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #143

Nice dodge. PavePusher Jan 2012 #153

Your analogies get funnier by the day Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #159

Let's finance the Coast Guard by taxing boat and ship owners. Why not? friendly_iconoclast Jan 2012 #155

Boats and ships are taxed and do help fund the Coast Guard. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #156

Most of their funding comes via the DHS appropriation. friendly_iconoclast Jan 2012 #164

The USCG performs many functions, as does the fire department Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #172

Gun owners *already* pay the taxes you call for friendly_iconoclast Jan 2012 #177

"They help to fund" oneshooter Jan 2012 #175

Why? Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #176

Why not? A 10-11% excise tax on marine related items would be a start. friendly_iconoclast Jan 2012 #178

We have plenty of those taxes/fees and they are justified. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #179

You misunderstand, I have no problem with Pittman-Robertson taxes. friendly_iconoclast Jan 2012 #182

No assumption on my part. I had no idea. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #183

The Robertson was gejohnston Jan 2012 #186

2005 PLCAA will take care of that suit. N/T GreenStormCloud Jan 2012 #14

what a crock of shit rl6214 Jan 2012 #26

This whole thing is obviously the fault of the negligent seller and the manufacturer. TPaine7 Jan 2012 #33

So we now need a MSW to sell guns? BiggJawn Jan 2012 #35

Now why would a mentally ill person lie? Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #41

I dunno, let's ask my first ex-wife... BiggJawn Jan 2012 #44

So would you believe her if you were selling her a gun? Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #45

"She did a pretty good job of hiding it while we were married." rl6214 Jan 2012 #51

On our second martini are we? Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #53

No, I don't drink rl6214 Jan 2012 #54

Congrats on your marriage. Sorry about the Type 1 diabetes. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #60

I really think that it is unworkable. oneshooter Jan 2012 #64

It may be expensive. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #66

"I don't see how it could be illegal" ProgressiveProfessor Jan 2012 #71

Wrong again. The system needs to be fixed, if you want a system. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #73

The system needs to execute under the existing framework ProgressiveProfessor Jan 2012 #76

And what of purchasers of other potential lethal implements? Marengo Jan 2012 #83

You're not talking about fixing a system We_Have_A_Problem Jan 2012 #89

Maybe... discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2012 #93

Why? Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #107

Why not? We_Have_A_Problem Jan 2012 #110

Apples and oranges. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #112

How do you figure? We_Have_A_Problem Jan 2012 #114

Actually, a printer's ink / paper tax was already ruled unconstitutional.. X_Digger Jan 2012 #116

I know it was We_Have_A_Problem Jan 2012 #131

If you can be... discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2012 #121

No right would be denied anymore than at present. Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #122

True enough! discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2012 #124

I'm talking about firearms Starboard Tack Jan 2012 #135

Wait a minute. discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2012 #136

There's the key word: Mental Health PROFESSIONAL. BiggJawn Jan 2012 #81

That's what the phone call is for. Straw Man Jan 2012 #57

Do not confuse the bubba with facts and logic ProgressiveProfessor Jan 2012 #78

No need. Use the volunteer psychs right in this thread. nt SteveW Jan 2012 #103

family is even suing the rotary club sponsor who dropped off the victim at the club. aikoaiko Jan 2012 #75

More than just them ProgressiveProfessor Jan 2012 #77

Somewhere in there the right numbers for this lottery... ileus Jan 2012 #80

Sue! Sue! A Boy named Sue! The whole Sioux Nation! nt SteveW Jan 2012 #105

I see J. Randolph Pickett recovered from his injuries when that ambulance backed over him. Wistful Vista Jan 2012 #118

re: "...gun shop should have trained their people to recognize depression..." discntnt_irny_srcsm Jan 2012 #125

Plantiff is crazy. E6-B Jan 2012 #128

I predict treble damages awarded to the pawn shop. Tejas Jan 2012 #152