Gun Control & RKBA

Callisto32

(2,997 posts)

23. On ignorance of the law...

Wed Nov 28, 2012, 12:05 PM

Nov 2012

An interesting saying, but not nearly so applicable today. I could be wrong, but according to my law school eduation, that saying was in place when the laws were pretty much limited to the common laws. Don't steal, attack, damage, murder, kidnap ,et ceterea. The laws were so basic that coming to court and saying "I didn't know it was illegal to steal" wouldn't be a defense, as knowing to not steal was presumed to be so basic, that nobody could plead ignorance and expect it to be okay.

It doesn't work so well now that there are thousands upon thousands upon ten thousands of pages of statutes and regulations that no living human could never read, let alone remember and follow.

Just my thoughts (they used to be someone else's but they are mine now, aren't words great) on that old saying.

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Michael Dunn, Florida Man, Invokes 'Stand Your Ground' Law After Shooting Black Teen [View all] SecularMotion Nov 2012 OP

But once again, it was not, HIS GROUND, and he STARTED it. CBGLuthier Nov 2012 #1

Exactly. peacebird Nov 2012 #2

It's Florida... Sekhmets Daughter Nov 2012 #4

Very hateful of you, going after a blue state... Eleanors38 Nov 2012 #10

Florida is, at best, purple... Sekhmets Daughter Nov 2012 #16

according to linked articles gejohnston Nov 2012 #20

I will be very happy to see Dunn Sekhmets Daughter Nov 2012 #24

The law, even in FL, does what you desire ProgressiveProfessor Nov 2012 #45

Had there been no public outcry Sekhmets Daughter Nov 2012 #57

The police department and DA were clearly imperfect...they accepted self defense ProgressiveProfessor Nov 2012 #66

I oppose SYG laws ... 1StrongBlackMan Nov 2012 #58

Your summary of SYG is incorrect ProgressiveProfessor Nov 2012 #65

I should have added ... 1StrongBlackMan Nov 2012 #68

The early hearing is FL unique and still requires documenting the elements of self defense ProgressiveProfessor Nov 2012 #73

In Texas ALL shootings go before a Grand Jury. oneshooter Nov 2012 #86

Zimmerman has nothing to do with it gejohnston Nov 2012 #64

You don't understand SYG or self-defense law either. GreenStormCloud Nov 2012 #30

If you say so.... Sekhmets Daughter Nov 2012 #35

We don't have to say so, the Law does. PavePusher Nov 2012 #41

What we will wait for is an indictment, a trial Sekhmets Daughter Nov 2012 #53

Urmm ... 1StrongBlackMan Nov 2012 #59

That presumption is rebuttable - The perception of a threat has to be reasonable for the defense... slackmaster Nov 2012 #67

True ... 1StrongBlackMan Nov 2012 #69

Yes, but that's not the case in this incident slackmaster Nov 2012 #71

I think you are confusing Stand Your Ground with Castle Doctrine ProgressiveProfessor Nov 2012 #72

For someone who sees things in black and white, purple is in some sense refreshing... Eleanors38 Nov 2012 #99

I see very little in "black and white". Sekhmets Daughter Nov 2012 #100

Well, there is a lot of stuff from MSM about "license to kill...." Eleanors38 Nov 2012 #103

As I said the Texas Law is a good example Sekhmets Daughter Nov 2012 #105

actually it does, gejohnston Nov 2012 #106

From the text of the FL SYG Law Sekhmets Daughter Nov 2012 #115

because the evidence leaned toward's Zimmerman's favor gejohnston Nov 2012 #116

Actually, it didn't. Sekhmets Daughter Nov 2012 #118

wrong gejohnston Nov 2012 #119

Well, Sekhmets Daughter Nov 2012 #121

I sure as hell didn't hear that... Blue_Tires Nov 2015 #140

I could live with a Texas-type change in SYG laws. Eleanors38 Nov 2012 #107

LMAO.... Sekhmets Daughter Nov 2012 #108

My Mom and her folks settled in Polk-Pasco Co. areas, starting in Eleanors38 Nov 2012 #126

How wonderful! Sekhmets Daughter Nov 2012 #128

Ha! I like the "damned Yankee" definition. The unfortunate thing about death... Eleanors38 Dec 2012 #130

Life in Florida Sekhmets Daughter Dec 2012 #131

My Dad, usually reticent in personal matters, told me this about his father... Eleanors38 Dec 2012 #132

That was your grandfather speaking Sekhmets Daughter Dec 2012 #133

LOL! And I heard it twice from him once. Eleanors38 Dec 2012 #134

LMAO Sekhmets Daughter Dec 2012 #136

Likewise! Eleanors38 Dec 2012 #138

"The FL SYG law is so broadly written it is little more than a license to kill." PavePusher Nov 2012 #109

From the text of the law Sekhmets Daughter Nov 2012 #114

your image is from stock charactors from movies and TV gejohnston Nov 2012 #117

I have lived in FL Sekhmets Daughter Nov 2012 #120

that hasn't been my experiance on the west coast gejohnston Nov 2012 #122

I live in Palm Beach County Sekhmets Daughter Nov 2012 #123

I'm from Wyoming, gejohnston Nov 2012 #124

That must have been Sekhmets Daughter Nov 2012 #125

So, in other words, it does not say at all what you claimed.... PavePusher Dec 2012 #137

Law seems to be working, right? Being tried for murder... Eleanors38 Nov 2012 #8

Poor families of both people. safeinOhio Nov 2012 #3

What if it was justified? n/t krispos42 Nov 2012 #17

Anything short of: Blue_Tires Nov 2012 #18

Justified? Politicalboi Nov 2012 #26

Oh, come on. krispos42 Nov 2012 #28

Nothing wrong with asking at all, BUT... Blue_Tires Nov 2012 #29

Or if the response to your request makes you scared enough to start shooting... krispos42 Nov 2012 #32

From everything I've read so far, it's only going one way at this point... Blue_Tires Nov 2012 #36

I don't know, either. krispos42 Nov 2012 #50

What if their response to your request is to become violent? GreenStormCloud Nov 2012 #33

Of course, Dunn isn't saying there was an "aggressive action" Blue_Tires Nov 2012 #40

I am just pointing out that you left out a possibility. GreenStormCloud Nov 2012 #51

Don't you think ... 1StrongBlackMan Nov 2012 #60

entirely possible krispos42 Nov 2012 #70

oh come on noiretextatique Nov 2012 #78

I agree. krispos42 Nov 2012 #81

Drive away and leave his wife inside the store? N/T GreenStormCloud Nov 2012 #31

The point of it is, he could have just ignored and endured it for the couple of minutes Blue_Tires Nov 2012 #42

Personally, I would have endured it in silence. GreenStormCloud Nov 2012 #54

Correct on all counts sarisataka Nov 2012 #63

I always carry a fresh pair of squishy ear plugs with me for just that reason... slackmaster Nov 2012 #80

I agree. Or turn on 100 watts... Eleanors38 Nov 2012 #104

What utter bovine excrement. yeswehavenobananas Dec 2012 #129

I'm pretty sure the one who "didn't know how to behave" was the shooter Blue_Tires Dec 2012 #139

We'll see when all the facts come out.. pipoman Nov 2012 #5

Not being a lawyer, or even sober, this guy safeinOhio Nov 2012 #7

How is that different than any other law pipoman Nov 2012 #11

On ignorance of the law... Callisto32 Nov 2012 #23

Are you saying ignorance of the law pipoman Nov 2012 #85

Criminal intent (mens rea) is at the core of common law crimes, I would say. Callisto32 Nov 2012 #113

Hold your horses, safeinOhio. We have no way of knowing his state of mind at the time. slackmaster Nov 2012 #14

Its not SYG, its self defense ProgressiveProfessor Nov 2012 #46

Bull.... Sekhmets Daughter Nov 2012 #25

Perhaps you should learn what SYG really does, and doesn't do. GreenStormCloud Nov 2012 #37

Sure it does... That's why it took Sekhmets Daughter Nov 2012 #39

IIRC, neither Z- or his lawyers have ever invoked SYG. PavePusher Nov 2012 #43

The police initially Sekhmets Daughter Nov 2012 #52

Ummm, your link is inoperative. PavePusher Nov 2012 #110

I will retreat if I reasonable can. GreenStormCloud Nov 2012 #44

SYG, IMHO, has caused as many problems as it has solved. Sekhmets Daughter Nov 2012 #55

It is extremely doubtful that you would do that. GreenStormCloud Nov 2012 #61

LOL...Of course I would not do that...but Sekhmets Daughter Nov 2012 #77

It seems to me like this 'SYG' business should be decided by a jury, not by police at the scene rbixby Nov 2012 #56

It is not at all decided by the police. It is decided by the local prosecuter... PavePusher Nov 2012 #111

Simple pipoman Nov 2012 #89

If what we've heard about the case so far is correct, JoeyT Nov 2012 #6

The way it reads this isn't going to float trying to use SYG. ileus Nov 2012 #9

It seems Berserker Nov 2012 #12

an impartial Florida jury will sort it out. trouble.smith Nov 2012 #13

You may get dog-piled for posting that without a sarcasm tag, but I hope you are right. slackmaster Nov 2012 #15

What's one-sided about it? Blue_Tires Nov 2012 #19

I was talking Berserker Nov 2012 #112

Would never have happened if the fool hadn't been carrying a gun. Starboard Tack Nov 2012 #21

So it's unreasonable to approach black men playing loud music... krispos42 Nov 2012 #34

Never touch a black man's radio ProgressiveProfessor Nov 2012 #47

I would not say he got "lucky". On the contrary. Starboard Tack Nov 2012 #49

it's completely unreasonable to kill someone because of loud music noiretextatique Nov 2012 #79

That's probably the case. krispos42 Nov 2012 #82

not so sure about that noiretextatique Nov 2012 #84

True, but that's a systemic problem. krispos42 Nov 2012 #90

Oh, here we go: Dunn allegedly saw a shottie on the backseat... Blue_Tires Nov 2012 #22

"So Counselor ... 1StrongBlackMan Nov 2012 #62

Can't tell from the video WinniSkipper Nov 2012 #27

Seems unlikely that he will be able to make that case. Atypical Liberal Nov 2012 #38

That is my take as well. Does not meet the self defense standard ProgressiveProfessor Nov 2012 #48

Drove away from a shooting scene. safeinOhio Nov 2012 #74

I didn't make that connection. Makes it more obvious indeed. Atypical Liberal Nov 2012 #96

We shall see Glassunion Nov 2012 #75

Florida is a Stupid State HockeyMom Nov 2012 #76

Here in Minnesota a guy just shot and killed two teenagers, The Velveteen Ocelot Nov 2012 #83

um...yeah, that guy is a sadistic sociopath Blue_Tires Nov 2012 #87

That is Castle Doctrine, not SYG. GreenStormCloud Nov 2012 #91

Exactly. The Velveteen Ocelot Nov 2012 #92

shooting or stabbing a wounded person gejohnston Nov 2012 #93

Exception is multiple shots during a single attempt to shoot the intruder ProgressiveProfessor Nov 2012 #94

Here in MN sarisataka Nov 2012 #95

I don't really understand what all this is about. oneshooter Nov 2012 #88

If you're having trouble understanding, catch up with the backstory here: Blue_Tires Nov 2012 #97

Umm, I believe oneshooter negelected the 'sarcasm' tag. friendly_iconoclast Nov 2012 #98

I have to believe there is video of the event (gas station parking lot) aikoaiko Nov 2012 #101

Life without parole madokie Nov 2012 #102

Perhaps we could stick with the bottom line here: classof56 Nov 2012 #127

Another racist douchebag with a gun will soon be on death row. jpak Dec 2012 #135