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Gun Control & RKBA

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Recursion

(56,582 posts)
Fri Dec 21, 2012, 07:49 PM Dec 2012

The case against an assault weapons ban [View all]

I have debated writing this OP, given both the national context and the climate on DU, but I figured that if there's little good to be done there's also no harm, and I think this is an important point.

There are three main arguments against reinstating the assault weapons ban:

1. The assault weapons ban doesn't do what you think it does
2. What you want to do isn't politically or practically feasible
3. It's politically tone-deaf and damaging

The assault weapons ban doesn't do what you think it does

There's really no way around this. If you support an AWB, you don't know what it actually did. We have Democratic legislators on record after voting about it, saying they didn't realize what it did. There are a multitude of posts on DU explaining what it actually did and I invite you to read them; in my experience there are people who already know and people who can't bring themselves to care. (Think about that: people call for a ban and explicitly say they don't care what it's actually banning. Is that a liberal POV?)

Suffice it to say that the weapon the shooter in Newtown use was not an assault weapon (Connecticut has an assault weapons ban) because it didn't not have a place to mount a bayonet. Yes, really. The ban doesn't do what you think it did, and it won't do what you think it will. I have no doubt that the innocents murdered in Newtown will be brought up in any future discussion of gun control -- and they certainly should be -- but it seems perverse to bring them up while advocating for a bill that keeps the weapon that killed them legal.

And before you say, "well, it's a start; it just didn't go far enough" let me stop you: it didn't go anywhere. It was rapid motion sideways on the scale of more or fewer gun restrictions. It made sure that the Newtown killer couldn't mount a bayonet on his rifle. It's not a serious law. It's a joke.

What you want to do isn't politically or practically feasible

So, at the risk of putting words in your mouth, what is it you want to do? For the most part, you want to ban semi-automatic weapons with detachable magazine, which you wrongly associate with meaning "rifles with matte black finishes and pistol grips". Banning these effectively would make mass shootings very difficult, on the order of impossible.

It would also be as difficult to actually do as banning alcohol and marijuana proved to be. This is technology that has been in civilian hands for over a century. This is about half of all firearms in private hands and nearly all new sales for the past several decades.

The AWB "worked" because it didn't ban guns people actually used; nobody really cares about bayonet mounts or threaded barrels. They care about having semi-automatic weapons with detachable magazines, largely for the same reasons you want to ban them: because they are effective firearms.

It's politically tone-deaf and damaging

Obviously, if that were all, the AWB would do no harm even if it does no good. Like I said, nobody actually cares about bayonet mounts. But it's politically absolutely toxic.

Think about how you feel when a conservative bloviates on a subject he knows absolutely nothing about. OK, got that irked feeling in your head? This is how our side argues on guns. How many times have you seen (or even written) "I don't ****ing care whether it's an assault rifle or an assault weapon I just want you to get rid of the death-spewing penis surrogates!"

Think about that, for a second, you've called for a ban that you don't even understand, and attack people who do understand and point out that it's a stupid law as barbarians and child-murderers despite the fact that you're the one pushing for a bill that specifically keeps the gun used in Newtown legal.

There are two levels of category errors happening on our side here. First, people think that how a rifle looks in any way indicates its capabilities. Second, you think the assault weapons ban banned any gun that looks military. These are both wrong, and people who get incredibly worked up about this one bad piece of legislation don't even bother to learn these things. (Even my friend who worked at Brady got really sick of that.)

People who own guns see that, and see that you're pushing for a law that doesn't actually do what you think it does and that you can't even be bothered to learn what it is that you're banning and get very irritated, and vote Republican. Furthermore, the legislators who take the hit from the NRA now put their gloves back on and say "well, we passed meaningful gun control legislation" and the issue is dead for the next 10 years. Nothing gets done about handguns. Nothing gets done about. Because we've burned up all of our political will on a stupid law whose entire purpose is to piss off gun owners without actually addressing gun crime. This needs to not happen again.





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So you are not arguing against a new AWB, your arguing for one that is greatly expanded. jmg257 Dec 2012 #1
I'm not sure Recursion Dec 2012 #3
One doesn't have to try and ban all semi-automatics. Kaleva Dec 2012 #9
This would be a serious proposal. krispos42 Dec 2012 #11
I have your thread bookmarked. Kaleva Dec 2012 #18
Thanks. krispos42 Dec 2012 #25
With my budget, I'd be limited to something like this Kaleva Dec 2012 #30
I'm gonna sell when my AR's are worth 3500. ileus Dec 2012 #23
And you'd probably get that in a few years if there was a comprehensive ban on... Kaleva Dec 2012 #27
Hopefully we won't see such a broad ban. ileus Dec 2012 #33
If someone votes Republican over this issue, we don't need them MightyMopar Dec 2012 #2
We don't get to decide what's important to voters (nt) Recursion Dec 2012 #6
Many people who don't vote would come off the fence to vote against the gun culture MightyMopar Dec 2012 #28
You wouldn't mind if we try to write a better law. upaloopa Dec 2012 #4
Firing so many rounds Recursion Dec 2012 #5
You are not thinking big enough. jmg257 Dec 2012 #7
Well you just keep bringing up exceptions and I can write a law to cover them upaloopa Dec 2012 #8
No, these aren't exceptions, that's my point Recursion Dec 2012 #10
Like I said it matters what paradigm you see the world through. upaloopa Dec 2012 #13
Well I in fact do think we need gun control, so you're missing something Recursion Dec 2012 #15
You keep dodging the subject. PavePusher Dec 2012 #39
Be aware that an AR-15 runs about $1,500 a copy. krispos42 Dec 2012 #14
What do you think fair market value on all those would be if they were illegal to possess? jmg257 Dec 2012 #16
Black markets are difficult to model Recursion Dec 2012 #17
No clue krispos42 Dec 2012 #20
You make it sound so simple .... spin Dec 2012 #21
I was told expressly that technical details didn't matter. krispos42 Dec 2012 #12
About Point #2 Bonhomme Richard Dec 2012 #19
Actually I think "pretend military rifle" is a great term Recursion Dec 2012 #22
Go ahead. I am tired of people getting hung up on semantics. Bonhomme Richard Dec 2012 #26
While I dislike the rhetoric, your points hold merit enough to warrant further study. Decoy of Fenris Dec 2012 #29
How about all of the lever rifles oneshooter Dec 2012 #56
I'm now into the school of thought that says reclassify all semi-automatics to be covered under the RomneyLies Dec 2012 #24
I think I understand that gun officionado's want to get the laws "right". MichiganVote Dec 2012 #31
Well said, and I do get that Recursion Dec 2012 #32
:) If only others did too. Thing is, we need every rational mind now on this MichiganVote Dec 2012 #34
It is not now, nor has it ever been, about "safety". ManiacJoe Dec 2012 #35
To parents, to neighborhood to people-the issue is safety. MichiganVote Dec 2012 #36
Well, you have it half correct. ManiacJoe Dec 2012 #37
We can exercise control too if its important enought to us. MichiganVote Dec 2012 #46
The last time we tried to legislate social safety quickly, we got the Patriot Act. PavePusher Dec 2012 #40
And I would argue that the Patriot Act was more about repression. MichiganVote Dec 2012 #45
One man's perception of safety is another mans repression. PavePusher Dec 2012 #48
Correct. Its a conundrum. Until you remember 20 dead 1st graders and their families. MichiganVote Dec 2012 #49
...and the fact that the laws of their state required them to be essentially defenseless.... PavePusher Dec 2012 #50
Ah, I see. The answer then in your eyes is for 1st graders to be defensive. MichiganVote Dec 2012 #53
Have fun with that shark you jumped.... PavePusher Dec 2012 #54
Then let's ban semi-automatic weapons with detachable magazines, then. And handguns. nilram Dec 2012 #38
"They aren't doing anyone any good..." PavePusher Dec 2012 #41
The Australian homicide rate was going down before the ban gejohnston Dec 2012 #42
I'm glad they got busted. Good news for a change. nilram Dec 2012 #43
agreed gejohnston Dec 2012 #44
Our homicide rate has gone down slightly more than Australia's has Recursion Dec 2012 #47
This message was self-deleted by its author ann--- Dec 2012 #51
I disagree Recursion Dec 2012 #52
Skinner's temporary amnesty allowing Second Amendment posts in GD brought out those who only think jody Dec 2012 #55
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