Religion

struggle4progress

(126,158 posts)

108. seattledo indicated "the other xtians that influenced them ... share at least some of the blame"

Mon Jan 27, 2014, 07:55 PM

Jan 2014

so I inquired into the evidence for such influences

I am aware of Avery's former ties to Maranatha Brethren Church in Hagerstown, but none of the stories I've seen seen indicate any of their ideas originated there:

A former family pastor says exorcism was never brought up ... Pastor Dan Thornton of Maranatha Brethren Church says the Harris family moved to Hagerstown with the prospect of a new job ... Members drove them to Sunday Service, doctor's offices, bought them groceries, clothes and even furniture ... Members took the mother to counseling but they don't know for what type of mental health issues, Thornton said ...
Former family pastor says exorcism never brought up
Surae Chinn, WUSA 2:16 p.m. EST January 20, 2014

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Maryland mom kills 2 of her children during attempted exorcism [View all] trotsky Jan 2014 OP

The problem isn't necessarily the exorcism. Htom Sirveaux Jan 2014 #1

How do you know? trotsky Jan 2014 #3

As I said, then I would agree that the underlying belief Htom Sirveaux Jan 2014 #4

Well, not quite. trotsky Jan 2014 #5

Think she mighta just stabbed 'em anyway? Iggo Jan 2014 #44

"... Zakieya L. Avery .. was charged .. with two counts of first-degree murder struggle4progress Jan 2014 #72

Are you actually using these people to attempt a dubious point about religion? rug Jan 2014 #2

First of all it was two women, only one of whom is covered by your post. Warren Stupidity Jan 2014 #6

Bullshit. rug Jan 2014 #8

Who said anything about their being stupid? Warren Stupidity Jan 2014 #19

Your privilege is showing, Warren. rug Jan 2014 #20

Your shamelessness is evident. Warren Stupidity Jan 2014 #22

I'm not the one trying to score points with dead children. rug Jan 2014 #23

Funny. Happens to me all the time in the Gungeon. AtheistCrusader Jan 2014 #25

Hilarious. rug Jan 2014 #26

Yes we can judge them. They killed two children so yes we can judge them. hrmjustin Jan 2014 #7

How do you know their religious beliefs were false? n/t trotsky Jan 2014 #9

I don't give a damn what the hell their religious beliefs are!!! hrmjustin Jan 2014 #10

According to some, unless we can prove their beliefs are wrong... trotsky Jan 2014 #11

Listen I am all for religious tolerance but there are lines and this clearly crosses it. hrmjustin Jan 2014 #12

So you're intolerant, in other words skepticscott Jan 2014 #13

If someone is hurting someone else either physically or mentally based on their religious hrmjustin Jan 2014 #14

Good, then we agree that such things skepticscott Jan 2014 #15

I think it's pretty shitty Dorian Gray Jan 2014 #45

On the contrary skepticscott Jan 2014 #55

I disagree LeftishBrit Jan 2014 #106

Perhaps I should have been clearer skepticscott Jan 2014 #109

See, I don't care about testing principles here though Dorian Gray Jan 2014 #117

You don't have to care skepticscott Jan 2014 #118

I care about not killing people Dorian Gray Jan 2014 #120

You hold the same misguided view skepticscott Jan 2014 #123

I know you believe that Dorian Gray Jan 2014 #131

It's not a matter of "believing" skepticscott Jan 2014 #142

Extreme situations are often where we find holes in logic. trotsky Jan 2014 #68

I get that people are searching for answers Dorian Gray Jan 2014 #119

But what about an "answer" found in a "faith filled way"? trotsky Jan 2014 #138

But can one not say the same about any sort of beliefs? LeftishBrit Jan 2014 #130

I 100% agree with this Dorian Gray Jan 2014 #132

Absolutely! trotsky Jan 2014 #134

Very, very well said! Htom Sirveaux Jan 2014 #207

A "raving lunatic" LOL. How low can you limbo dance to justify such bigotry? Starboard Tack Jan 2014 #93

Since you failed miserably to provide any evidence skepticscott Jan 2014 #96

You provide the evidence in many of your posts. Starboard Tack Jan 2014 #99

Ah, yes, the old "I've already given the evidence" dodge skepticscott Jan 2014 #100

I think there's a clear criterion here. okasha Jan 2014 #16

Yes. We do not allow acts of violence or murder against another. hrmjustin Jan 2014 #17

But surely she didn't *intend* to kill her children. trotsky Jan 2014 #57

"... Zakieya L. Avery .. was charged .. with two counts of first-degree murder struggle4progress Jan 2014 #73

We can certainly judge her by what the law says. trotsky Jan 2014 #75

I have seen no reporting on the "religious beliefs" of either Avery and Sanford, so struggle4progress Jan 2014 #77

Great! trotsky Jan 2014 #80

cbayer's husband should be chiming in any minute Goblinmonger Jan 2014 #125

And what about the other xtians that influenced them? seattledo Jan 2014 #53

The church that they belonged to are distancing themselves from this. hrmjustin Jan 2014 #58

Feel free to provide actual evidence about influences on Zakieya Avery and Monifa Sanford struggle4progress Jan 2014 #74

What we have heard so far from the police is that the women claimed... trotsky Jan 2014 #83

seattledo indicated "the other xtians that influenced them ... share at least some of the blame" struggle4progress Jan 2014 #108

So, do you have any evidence the police or women are lying? n/t trotsky Jan 2014 #135

Here's another link on the Maranatha Brethren Church and Avery: struggle4progress Jan 2014 #111

Yep, a disturbing church and set of religious beliefs to be sure. trotsky Jan 2014 #136

It's a sad story, about the murder of several children whose mother has a history of mental illness struggle4progress Jan 2014 #18

We know they were conducting a religious ritual. Warren Stupidity Jan 2014 #21

Really? And what religious ritual does a psychotic mind follow? rug Jan 2014 #24

Is it your claim that a psychotic person cannot practice religion? Warren Stupidity Jan 2014 #31

What's the ritual performed in their psychotic state, Warren? rug Jan 2014 #32

You know they were in a psychotic state? Warren Stupidity Jan 2014 #39

You know they were performing a religious ritual? rug Jan 2014 #107

You've asserted they were in a psychotic state, based on what evidence? Warren Stupidity Jan 2014 #110

You've asserted they were performing a religious ritual. rug Jan 2014 #116

I see, you know you put yourself in a corner and now you are just playing last word. Warren Stupidity Jan 2014 #122

I'm not out on a limb claiming these murders are a religious ritual. rug Jan 2014 #141

You got links for any of that? struggle4progress Jan 2014 #27

Maryland mom kills 2 of her children during attempted exorcism. Warren Stupidity Jan 2014 #29

So you've established that the headline editor here used the word "exorcism." But that seems struggle4progress Jan 2014 #33

The police, as has been reported many times, have stated this. Warren Stupidity Jan 2014 #38

It's a strange quote: did all "police" chant this is unison? Or is it from some definite person struggle4progress Jan 2014 #40

Really? That is your argument? Warren Stupidity Jan 2014 #51

"She thought the devil was in the kids" trotsky Jan 2014 #71

That might move closer to actual facts: it indicates Marcus Jones used the word "exorcism" struggle4progress Jan 2014 #76

You can believe what you want to believe. trotsky Jan 2014 #79

I have taken no stand on such questions as "What did Avery and Sanford believe?" struggle4progress Jan 2014 #82

The basis I am using is what the police have said. trotsky Jan 2014 #84

We don't know that they were conducting a religious ritual. kwassa Jan 2014 #28

We have had multiple reports from the police stating exactly that. Warren Stupidity Jan 2014 #30

Do feel free to post links to any of those reports struggle4progress Jan 2014 #34

From the link at the op. Warren Stupidity Jan 2014 #36

You claimed "We have .. multiple reports from the police" -- but provide no links to police reports struggle4progress Jan 2014 #43

Ah - indeed, I meant multiple reports of the police clearly stating Warren Stupidity Jan 2014 #47

So far, what we actually know is that Captain Marcus Jones, director struggle4progress Jan 2014 #78

... Montgomery County Police Department Capt. Marcus Jones ..., who spent hours struggle4progress Jan 2014 #166

And that link says they were prepared for an exorcism muriel_volestrangler Jan 2014 #220

I already summarized all that two days ago in my #113 down-thread struggle4progress Jan 2014 #221

... Investigators spoke to the pastor of the church Avery attended, struggle4progress Jan 2014 #168

Again I ask... trotsky Jan 2014 #178

It may be a while skepticscott Jan 2014 #180

There is only one police force involved, with one report. No specifics. kwassa Jan 2014 #35

You all seem to have your own facts. Warren Stupidity Jan 2014 #37

Have I stated one untrue thing? Nope. kwassa Jan 2014 #42

"jumping to a conclusion" - no, restating the undisputed account of this crime. Warren Stupidity Jan 2014 #50

Actually Dorian Gray Jan 2014 #46

Who said the police "condoned the exorcism" - seriously wtf? Warren Stupidity Jan 2014 #48

Nobody said that.... Dorian Gray Jan 2014 #121

You have presented a false dilemma. trotsky Jan 2014 #139

The single largest Christian church on the planet still acknowledges exorcism as a real procedure... trotsky Jan 2014 #54

I have to say I am having a hard time putting into words what I think of exorcism. hrmjustin Jan 2014 #41

Thank you. I can't imagine why people are pretending this wasn't one Warren Stupidity Jan 2014 #49

... Montgomery County Police Department Capt. Marcus Jones ..., who spent hours struggle4progress Jan 2014 #115

I think we can agree that people can think they are performing an exorcism and... trotsky Jan 2014 #140

... Investigators spoke to the pastor of the church Avery attended, struggle4progress Jan 2014 #161

Well clearly we have every reason to trust the pastor of the church... trotsky Jan 2014 #167

Is it possible for someone who is NOT mentally ill... trotsky Jan 2014 #56

While I believe the exorcism was idiotic get the red out Jan 2014 #52

Oh, there's mental illness at play, alrighty. Iggo Jan 2014 #60

What would you stab the exorcisee? goldent Jan 2014 #59

You can certainly think that if you want. trotsky Jan 2014 #61

I have a little evidence goldent Jan 2014 #62

But what if you believed that by stabbing the possessed individual... trotsky Jan 2014 #64

Pssst, hey trotsky... Youre using logic. cleanhippie Jan 2014 #65

I've never heard of anything like that goldent Jan 2014 #66

Is there only one way an exorcism can be performed? trotsky Jan 2014 #67

Well I've put in the 2 cents of my skepticism goldent Jan 2014 #70

The mental gymnastics that many are performing to remove blame from religion here is impressive. cleanhippie Jan 2014 #63

It's truly an interesting thing to observe, no doubt. n/t trotsky Jan 2014 #69

It is quite understandable seeing as how many of those gyrating also Warren Stupidity Jan 2014 #85

Exactly. n/t trotsky Jan 2014 #86

You have so distorted this that it has become unrecognizable. cbayer Jan 2014 #87

Just a harmless ritual, a metaphor. nt. Warren Stupidity Jan 2014 #88

When done by a priest it generally is a harmless ritual. cbayer Jan 2014 #89

except of course when it isn't, as was documented in the other discussion, and which evidence you Warren Stupidity Jan 2014 #90

Exactly right. cbayer Jan 2014 #92

What is your obsession with "points," cbayer? trotsky Jan 2014 #94

How about if the church just said instead skepticscott Jan 2014 #95

Wait, so when you accuse other DUers of promoting genocide... trotsky Jan 2014 #91

Except that it makes people not get the help they really need. Goblinmonger Jan 2014 #126

... Montgomery County Police Department Capt. Marcus Jones ..., who spent hours struggle4progress Jan 2014 #114

I'd like to see her evaluated for postpartum psychosis Warpy Jan 2014 #81

Oh Trottles. Why are you still peddling this hateful, intolerant drivel. Starboard Tack Jan 2014 #97

I realize how much you love to post personal insults, ST. trotsky Jan 2014 #98

Oh Trottles. What personal insult? Starboard Tack Jan 2014 #101

I am really not sure why you choose to engage in such malicious, abusive behavior. trotsky Jan 2014 #102

Are you ready to discuss your behavior and the points I made? Starboard Tack Jan 2014 #103

I will respond when your nasty, passive-aggressive attacks and smears stop. trotsky Jan 2014 #104

More passive-aggressive bullshit. cleanhippie Jan 2014 #112

Pot, meet kettle skepticscott Jan 2014 #105

Hey, justin in showing a good amount of intolerance up above Goblinmonger Jan 2014 #127

Really? Intolerance of what exactly? Murder? Starboard Tack Jan 2014 #144

You're the only one here skepticscott Jan 2014 #145

I would like to request you stop using that nickname for me. trotsky Jan 2014 #147

"Imagery"? What imagery? Starboard Tack Jan 2014 #151

Of course I can't stop you from using whatever names you want on me. trotsky Jan 2014 #154

I act like an adult in adult situations. Starboard Tack Jan 2014 #186

*sigh* trotsky Jan 2014 #189

You did not post this as "an example of religious beliefs gone bad" Starboard Tack Jan 2014 #196

Inflammatory? Oh, please skepticscott Jan 2014 #192

This message was self-deleted by its author cleanhippie Jan 2014 #197

Not hard to see skepticscott Jan 2014 #152

After more research, I have found accounts attributed to Montgomery county prosecutor, struggle4progress Jan 2014 #113

Yup, more religious ties. trotsky Jan 2014 #137

Of course we cannot fully try a case, until it goes to court; all facts are not in evidence yet.But Brettongarcia Jan 2014 #148

I disagree. okasha Jan 2014 #211

Let's get this straight skepticscott Jan 2014 #212

Nope, nothing at all to do with mental illness. rug Jan 2014 #213

Mental illness is not an exclusive diagnosis; they could be mentally ill AND religious Brettongarcia Jan 2014 #214

Speculation amd supposition okasha Jan 2014 #216

1) Exorcism is part of much Christianity; the individual church or not, that's the background. Brettongarcia Jan 2014 #217

I hate to be the one to break this to you, okasha Jan 2014 #231

Read the papers: the Church is currently training more exorcists; it thinks it needs them Brettongarcia Jan 2014 #232

The papers don't seem to have that link I requested. okasha Jan 2014 #234

And they are two entirely different things. rug Jan 2014 #219

I hope the times are changing; but the murderous past of Christianity is all over the Old Testament Brettongarcia Jan 2014 #233

See this is why the religious forum is a waste of time el_bryanto Jan 2014 #124

This is pretty on point Goblinmonger Jan 2014 #128

You've already made it perfectly clear you don't care what I think. trotsky Jan 2014 #133

You seem to weigh in here a lot skepticscott Jan 2014 #143

I disagree that this group is a waste of time cbayer Jan 2014 #146

Some of us also see that skepticscott Jan 2014 #149

Youre lucky this isnt real life where you would have to say that with a straight face to others. cleanhippie Jan 2014 #150

Yes, we can see the much larger group skepticscott Jan 2014 #155

I've wondered the same thing about the group that inhabits the Bitch & Moan group. Leontius Jan 2014 #185

Ironically, it was bitching and moaning skepticscott Jan 2014 #191

Why? Is that a threat? rug Jan 2014 #201

U mad, bro? cleanhippie Jan 2014 #215

At internet tough guys? rug Jan 2014 #218

Lol cleanhippie Jan 2014 #222

I couldn't possibly. You provide too much entertainment. rug Jan 2014 #223

Cool story, bro. cleanhippie Jan 2014 #224

. rug Jan 2014 #225

Nice summation of your argument. cleanhippie Jan 2014 #226

. . rug Jan 2014 #227

Nice selfie. cleanhippie Jan 2014 #228

I can't say it hasn't been productive but I'll leave you to your own devices now. rug Jan 2014 #229

Seems like you're keeping all the devices for yourself. cleanhippie Jan 2014 #230

Very true, cbayer. trotsky Jan 2014 #156

�A liberal is a man too broadminded to take his own side in a quarrel. � - Robert Frost el_bryanto Jan 2014 #160

And evidently a number of them who are committed to making false claims about others. n/t trotsky Jan 2014 #162

You can lie about my record all you want el_bryanto Jan 2014 #164

I'll happily answer that question when you retract your vicious smear and apologize. trotsky Jan 2014 #170

I understand that. cbayer Jan 2014 #165

There are two types of posts (generally) in this forum el_bryanto Jan 2014 #169

Or, to put it another way, it's the ones where people take the bait. cbayer Jan 2014 #171

I must miss those conversations. nt el_bryanto Jan 2014 #172

It all depends on who you choose to engage with. nt. cbayer Jan 2014 #177

This is why, cbayer, when you make your comments about "teams" and "points"... trotsky Jan 2014 #184

I think the wisest choice, for believers, is not to engage this board at all nt el_bryanto Jan 2014 #190

And will you be skepticscott Jan 2014 #193

You keep asking so I'll just answer. el_bryanto Jan 2014 #194

I don't think it is useful to pretend you are somehow above the behavior you claim to oppose. trotsky Jan 2014 #199

You do keep distorting the record el_bryanto Jan 2014 #202

I've distorted nothing. trotsky Jan 2014 #203

"You, for instance, labeled everyone who criticized the pope with a vicious personal smear." el_bryanto Jan 2014 #204

I stand by my TRUE statement. trotsky Jan 2014 #205

I'm happy to own them. They are accurate. el_bryanto Jan 2014 #206

I do see how pointless this is. trotsky Jan 2014 #209

Oh my gosh skepticscott Jan 2014 #210

Linkie? rug Jan 2014 #208

I would ask that you reconsider that position, but it is cbayer Jan 2014 #195

Ah, "to advance the causes and candidates that this site is set up to promote" skepticscott Jan 2014 #198

Yes, we know you'd love a forum that was all threads skepticscott Jan 2014 #175

And yet, you'd be unable skepticscott Jan 2014 #174

Like I said, it's a very small group. cbayer Jan 2014 #153

Agreed! hrmjustin Jan 2014 #157

So true! trotsky Jan 2014 #159

Aw, that's cute. trotsky Jan 2014 #158

Couldn't care less what pathetic things you do to boost your belief in the ridiculous. mr blur Jan 2014 #163

I understand it can be frustrating at times to be a believer here. hrmjustin Jan 2014 #176

Ah, yes skepticscott Jan 2014 #179

You know other than you and a few others most of the atheists here are very nice to me. hrmjustin Jan 2014 #181

You're free to take whatever tone you feel is effective skepticscott Jan 2014 #182

As I said, you can make your points while being polite. How you handle yourself is hrmjustin Jan 2014 #183

Thank you so much skepticscott Jan 2014 #187

Look you don't like me then don't bother with me. If you don't want to hear my hrmjustin Jan 2014 #188

It's more a reason why the OP should not be taken seriously. rug Jan 2014 #200

Truly horrible. LeftishBrit Jan 2014 #129

This is the problem with religious beliefs.. Swede Atlanta Jan 2014 #173