Religion

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)

65. Obviously you are

Wed Jan 29, 2014, 06:23 PM

Jan 2014

But until you reach a state where you actually believe in one or more gods, you're in a state of not believing in any gods (i.e. atheism). And you're in that state whether or not you care about what state you're in, and regardless of what you personally choose to call that state.

And no, actually, belief in this case is not all that hard to get a handle on. You ask someone "How many gods do you actively believe in?" If the answer is "none", they're an atheist. If the answer is some number that is 1 or more, then they're not an atheist. If their answer is "I don't know", then I would regard them as either being deliberately evasive, or so out of touch with what's in their own mind (since they're not even aware of their own active beliefs, as a normal person would be) that I would dismiss them as not worth engaging intellectually. As I also would if they said "well, two weeks ago, I believed in three gods, and last week I didn't believe in any, but this week I'm only believing in one."

Even a mule won't stand between two piles of hay long enough to starve.

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You're Not Agnostic, You're An Atheist [View all] cbayer Jan 2014 OP

Article and premise doesn't make much sense. vi5 Jan 2014 #1

YES... I don't get that either... hlthe2b Jan 2014 #2

Excellent point. Starboard Tack Jan 2014 #5

Oh, tacky, you're not still mad about being blocked from that group are you? cleanhippie Jan 2014 #9

every few months I clean out my ignore file demwing Jan 2014 #26

Do you feel better now? cleanhippie Jan 2014 #27

As a host here told me skepticscott Jan 2014 #66

That's just not true. Goblinmonger Jan 2014 #42

What on earth are you talking about? Starboard Tack Jan 2014 #68

Since no one here skepticscott Jan 2014 #70

I agree that they are a separate group. cbayer Jan 2014 #6

Well, words have meanings. Goblinmonger Jan 2014 #43

I had to read it a couple of times to get what I think is his point. cbayer Jan 2014 #4

Assuming they also reject the idea criteria that God (ultimate reality) is uknown and unknowable Android3.14 Jan 2014 #126

I've not heard the definition of god as the ultimate reality and cbayer Jan 2014 #127

How would they know if they were having a religious experience? Android3.14 Jan 2014 #128

Not so sure. Many people have religious experiences during cbayer Jan 2014 #129

I'm thinking we probably agree Android3.14 Jan 2014 #135

That's close to my entire take on religion. cbayer Jan 2014 #140

"But I think he is saying that if you call yourself an agnostic, then one would expect you to want djean111 Jan 2014 #130

I agree with you. Many are pretty apathetic on the entire topic, cbayer Jan 2014 #131

I think the author is talking about function. ZombieHorde Jan 2014 #77

I do not have a belief in God lapfog_1 Jan 2014 #3

Do you have a belief skepticscott Jan 2014 #11

Not believing in a god is the same as believing there is no god? cleanhippie Jan 2014 #20

no, not what I said. lapfog_1 Jan 2014 #21

It appears that you did. cleanhippie Jan 2014 #24

I'll try to do this again, this time with symbolic logic lapfog_1 Jan 2014 #38

I, too, do not have a belief in any gods. trotsky Jan 2014 #45

I am without god beliefs. PassingFair Jan 2014 #59

Exactly. An Agnostic can be a theist. AtheistCrusader Jan 2014 #75

Ahem... gcomeau Jan 2014 #83

That depends entirely on what definition one chooses and there are several. cbayer Jan 2014 #88

By those definitions, pretty much everyone is an "atheist", except most atheists skepticscott Jan 2014 #90

Let me put that another way gcomeau Jan 2014 #92

Well, as you know, I don't agree with you. cbayer Jan 2014 #97

"Atheism indicates a disbelief or denial." trotsky Jan 2014 #98

And have never presented a valid reason for disagreeing. gcomeau Jan 2014 #101

No, just haven't presented one that makes a dent in your strongly cbayer Jan 2014 #102

Knowing what people mean... gcomeau Jan 2014 #104

So what do you think people mean when they say they are agnostic, but cbayer Jan 2014 #106

For cripes sake... gcomeau Jan 2014 #107

I don't willfully block it out, I just don't agree with you. cbayer Jan 2014 #109

Uh-huh... gcomeau Jan 2014 #111

Honestly, I feel like I am discussing religion with a one wayer at this point. cbayer Jan 2014 #112

Yet more sighs... gcomeau Jan 2014 #113

No, apparently this crusade means far more to you, cbayer. trotsky Jan 2014 #114

Hmmmmm - my near death experience is what made me an atheist! djean111 Jan 2014 #151

Please stop trying to tell me, an atheist, what I think. trotsky Jan 2014 #94

I'm way beyond agnostic, and not an athiest.... Uben Jan 2014 #7

Really interesting take and adds credence to my feeling cbayer Jan 2014 #8

Yes, I believe evolution does play a part Uben Jan 2014 #13

I have long believed that there is no way we are top of the evolutionary food chain. cbayer Jan 2014 #14

I concur.... Uben Jan 2014 #15

Good point. cbayer Jan 2014 #16

I'm sure we don't know all forms that exist..... Uben Jan 2014 #18

I definitely agree that what we know is much less than what we don't know. cbayer Jan 2014 #19

If you don't believe in any gods, you're an atheist skepticscott Jan 2014 #10

Even Christians are atheists. They just don't believe in one less god than us. cleanhippie Jan 2014 #12

Unfortunately there are some who still hate the word so much... trotsky Jan 2014 #17

Oh boy. Here we go again. Act_of_Reparation Jan 2014 #22

That argument has been made over and over again here, but cbayer Jan 2014 #23

Does it also boggle your mind, cbayer skepticscott Jan 2014 #25

That's fine. Act_of_Reparation Jan 2014 #32

No, I'm not wrong, I just see it differently. cbayer Jan 2014 #35

I think you mean semantics... Act_of_Reparation Jan 2014 #46

Ok, semantics. cbayer Jan 2014 #47

Besides you and your mate, I don't know ANYONE who disagrees with it. PassingFair Jan 2014 #61

I'm glad it works for you and am surprised that you don't know anyone cbayer Jan 2014 #62

Your "hero" is afraid of the brand. PassingFair Jan 2014 #63

Well so says one blogger, who I generally like but cbayer Jan 2014 #64

Nothing to lose? You really can't believe that. skepticscott Jan 2014 #93

I don't think the meaning of words is determined by some kind of proof of logic, is it? eomer Jan 2014 #123

No, you're not correct. Act_of_Reparation Jan 2014 #137

Sure, but none of which is relevant to this discussion. eomer Jan 2014 #150

There are literally millions of Americans, cbayer... trotsky Jan 2014 #37

...and never refuted. gcomeau Jan 2014 #84

Repeatedly refuted, just not to the satisfaction of those who have adopted it as dogma. cbayer Jan 2014 #89

Denial is not refutation. -eom gcomeau Jan 2014 #96

No it's not. And insistence is not veracity. -eom cbayer Jan 2014 #100

I've always found the term "agnostic" to be over-complicating. arcane1 Jan 2014 #28

Because some people may vacillate or simply don't know whether they believe or not. cbayer Jan 2014 #29

Sorry, bullshit skepticscott Jan 2014 #34

You don't get to define atheism, cbayer. trotsky Jan 2014 #60

I think therefore there is a God? Not denying. Just a question. Religion and spirituality is a Lint Head Jan 2014 #30

I think that is part of the argument the author is making. cbayer Jan 2014 #31

To be 'sure' of something based on a guess, faith or belief is a fools errand. Lint Head Jan 2014 #36

To say nothing of the search for a god. cbayer Jan 2014 #40

For Christians: if God "fills all things," then with luck, whatever you do will have God in it Brettongarcia Jan 2014 #33

I have the right drmeow Jan 2014 #39

I agree with you. You have the right to resist any labels and only you cbayer Jan 2014 #41

There seems to be some confusion drmeow Jan 2014 #48

I'm not sure what you are saying. cbayer Jan 2014 #49

Sorry - you're right, I wasn't very clear drmeow Jan 2014 #52

I agree with your distinction. cbayer Jan 2014 #53

Sounds like we drmeow Jan 2014 #55

Meh is the correct answer for me. cbayer Jan 2014 #58

RESIST LABELS!!! trotsky Jan 2014 #56

What is fascinating to me drmeow Jan 2014 #134

Well I guess the important thing is that you got some personal insults in. trotsky Jan 2014 #138

Your drmeow Jan 2014 #141

That's been going on here for quite a while. cbayer Jan 2014 #139

Well, I've been around DU drmeow Jan 2014 #148

I'm glad that you have found your space here. cbayer Jan 2014 #149

I come to DU drmeow Feb 2014 #152

Some of us just like to see the truth recognized skepticscott Jan 2014 #145

As noted, you can skepticscott Jan 2014 #44

Am I allowed to drmeow Jan 2014 #50

Let's parse this apart a bit. Goblinmonger Jan 2014 #51

What you are saying drmeow Jan 2014 #54

Well you could Goblinmonger Jan 2014 #57

Obviously you are skepticscott Jan 2014 #65

You are operating under the assumption drmeow Jan 2014 #67

The flaw in all of your thinking skepticscott Jan 2014 #71

There is no such thing drmeow Jan 2014 #133

I didn't go to psychology school skepticscott Jan 2014 #144

True... gcomeau Jan 2014 #85

Ah, but there are alternatives to those two categories. cbayer Jan 2014 #91

No there are not. gcomeau Jan 2014 #95

So you hold the truth and all those that disagree with you cbayer Jan 2014 #99

Sigh... gcomeau Jan 2014 #103

And I think your logic is faulty. cbayer Jan 2014 #105

It's not "my" logic. It's a basic logical law. gcomeau Jan 2014 #108

But you're the one telling others that your definitions can't be challenged, cbayer. trotsky Jan 2014 #110

How does one avoid making a label? LostOne4Ever Jan 2014 #69

Think of it this way skepticscott Jan 2014 #73

I think there are things you can do. cbayer Jan 2014 #74

I would argue that atheists are TRYING to take it back. trotsky Jan 2014 #76

The point? Maybe this: many who think they are "agnostics," are really atheists Brettongarcia Jan 2014 #72

I tend to find few things more disrespectful TDale313 Jan 2014 #78

skepticscott has the best counterexample to this objection. trotsky Jan 2014 #79

I think the religionists skepticscott Jan 2014 #87

IMO, it generally TDale313 Jan 2014 #119

So your answer to my question is....? n/t trotsky Jan 2014 #120

What a shock skepticscott Jan 2014 #122

Ok, short answer? Yes. TDale313 Jan 2014 #132

Ah I think we're getting somewhere. trotsky Jan 2014 #136

No, I wouldn't be offended to be called a Dem TDale313 Jan 2014 #142

So you agree that terms can be used accurately, trotsky Jan 2014 #143

Not quite, although I know it can be read that way. TDale313 Jan 2014 #146

Certainly I think the definitions for words like Democrat or Christian... trotsky Jan 2014 #147

I agree with you. You have the right to resist any labels and only you cbayer Jan 2014 #80

Ah, you mean like you use the label "anti-theist" to marginalize others and suit your agenda! trotsky Jan 2014 #82

Oh, you mean like skepticscott Jan 2014 #86

Hi, I'm goblinmonger. I'm a conservative Roman Catholic. Goblinmonger Jan 2014 #81

This has always confused me and I'd love clarification (I admit, I haven't read every nirvana555 Jan 2014 #115

Do you KNOW there is no Santa Claus? skepticscott Jan 2014 #116

You are likely to get a variety of answers to this question, but it's a good one. cbayer Jan 2014 #117

Here's what I believe is a very simple distinction between the two Goblinmonger Jan 2014 #118

There's a reason some hate that chart. It reveals something they don't like to think about. trotsky Jan 2014 #121

Correction, you are a monger of goblins, nasty little devils. Starboard Tack Jan 2014 #124

Oh woe is you skepticscott Jan 2014 #125