Pope Francis calls for flexibility, patience as he opens talks on church teaching

[Brettongarcia]

48. i've had similar experiences with religion as MelloDem Etc.

The problem is that Liberal religionists try to assert that sure, Fundamentalists make mistakes. But beyond them is a right, "good," probably spiritual religiosity. The problem with Liberals though is this: there are problems even with "good" religion. And distinguishing it from "bad." The Bible itself often warned us that there are many bad things in religions, presenting themselves as "good."

Take the recent case, cited on DU, of the woman who thought that her good God was commanding her not to send her sick children to the doctor; so that two of her children died.

Here liberal religionists will insist that they themselves could not make any such errors. But how do you know the consequences of your own beliefs? Many liberals believe that being "spiritual" and trying to "love," could surely not go wrong, and could not harm. But as it turns out: even when we think we are being better than fundies, being more "spiritual," the Bible warned that there are "false spirits." While as for "love"? The Bible - and hard experience - taught many of us that even love can go wrong; we can love the wrong things; like love of drugs, or love of a drug lord. Finally "the heart is deceitful above all things.

Consistently, Ms. Bayer's idea seems to be 1) that sure, fundamentalists do many bad things in the name of religion. But like many liberal religionists, 2) she maintains however that there is a "good" side to religion, that we can find, and emphasize. Perhaps this is true in part. But it seems equally true that ... no one can ever be quite sure WHICH parts it is, that are good. The Bible rightly warned that many things which seem to be very good - "spirit," "love," things that come to us looking like the very "angel of light" and goodness - are often bad and deceitful things.

And in fact? It has been my own experience that even many of the very things that are called "good" in liberal religion - even "spirit" and "love" - often turn out to be very bad things indeed.

Finally there are so many bad things not only in fundamentalism, but even "higher," better, "spiritual," liberal religiosity, that many feel that it is time to walk away from ALL of it; from all "religion" altogether.