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Religion

In reply to the discussion: Was the Big Bang the Genesis? [View all]

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
138. You can't legitimately say that something is make believe unless you
Sat Mar 22, 2014, 01:13 PM
Mar 2014

have evidence that it does not or can not exist. Your WMD analogy is faulty. There were people who purposefully lied and what was believed was ultimately found to have been untrue based on evidence.

Otherwise, its just an opportunity to mock and dismiss religious believers.

You can say that it is based on faith and that there is not hard evidence to support it. Most believers would agree with that and be unlikely to be offended.

I don't believe any biblical fallacies should be left standing without challenge. If there is clear scientific evidence that contradicts a biblical interpretation, science wins.

But there are many things in the bible and other religious texts that can not be called fallacies because there is no evidence to dispute them at this time.

It's not about "promot(ing) the fables just so people don't get their religious panties in a wad" (such a juvenile way to put this), it's about having the decency to allow people to believe what they do when you have no justification for attacking it.

Just as you have the right to say "man, that's a lot of bullshit. I'm now questioning the whole thing?", others have the right to say that they find meaning in the texts and to have religious beliefs. Your POV does not trump theirs.

There is "very little guilt imposed by family and society for changing your mind if you switch political parties"? Are you kidding. In my family this would be a much bigger deal than changing one's religion. A MUCH bigger deal.

Faith is about believing things that have not been shown to be true. It is not about believing things that have proven to be untrue. If you have any such "proof", state it. Otherwise, the conceit is all yours.

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No CBGLuthier Mar 2014 #1
May be. pinto Mar 2014 #2
Interesting question. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #3
It crossed my mind as religious allegory and scientific theory. Neither define a "before", yet both pinto Mar 2014 #5
Yes they do. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #8
If a day could have been millions or billions of years instead of 24 hours, stopbush Mar 2014 #80
I agree that Genesis is not science. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #82
I agree. Too bad the message sucked as much as the bad science. stopbush Mar 2014 #84
Genesis was really written to set up the religion. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #85
Genesis was written to place men (not women, BTW) at the center of god's created universe. stopbush Mar 2014 #87
Unfortunately you are right that it was used to keep women as property hrmjustin Mar 2014 #88
The Old Testament is a horrible, horrible document, and the NT isn't much better. stopbush Mar 2014 #94
Wait. Did you just say that biblical philosophy is as bad and maybe worse, than fascism? cbayer Mar 2014 #95
Yes I did. Have you ever read the Bible, specifically, the law of the Bible? stopbush Mar 2014 #101
Are you not able to read critically? cbayer Mar 2014 #116
And I thought we were getting along. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #97
Most certainly not, you fascist!! cbayer Mar 2014 #98
I just knew I was an evildoer! hrmjustin Mar 2014 #99
You tell me - are we supposed to take the Bible as a whole, or are we to cherry pick it, stopbush Mar 2014 #100
I believe in a God of love. The people who wrote that stuff were tribal and war like. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #104
You're a cherry picker, for sure. stopbush Mar 2014 #108
I think it takes guts to believe and nit to believe in many parts of this world. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #110
I lived in NYC for 12 years. Made my living singing, often in churches. stopbush Mar 2014 #112
I understand how you feel. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #113
Why would a cherry picked faith be a cheap commodity. cbayer Mar 2014 #119
Because it demands nothing beyond the cherry picker's opinion. stopbush Mar 2014 #120
Where did you get the idea that something must be "demanded" in order cbayer Mar 2014 #121
I was explaining why I called faith cheap. stopbush Mar 2014 #125
I don't know about that. cbayer Mar 2014 #128
Religious beliefs aren't make believe - people hold them and some firmly believe them. stopbush Mar 2014 #136
You can't legitimately say that something is make believe unless you cbayer Mar 2014 #138
Saddam's WMD have still not been proven to not exist. Warren Stupidity Mar 2014 #139
Here's one for you: the Virgin birth of Jesus. stopbush Mar 2014 #140
You really don't get the basic edhopper Mar 2014 #141
That's right, ed. I really don't get the basic idea of critical inquiry. cbayer Mar 2014 #142
I thought we were talking about edhopper Mar 2014 #143
Stories are stories. cbayer Mar 2014 #144
Would mythical edhopper Mar 2014 #145
My disposition? I don't know about that, but allegory, metaphor, story, parable cbayer Mar 2014 #146
Yes edhopper Mar 2014 #147
I'm not going to be in total agreement with you about "fictional". cbayer Mar 2014 #149
Because you live in a World where edhopper Mar 2014 #150
I understand that some beliefs have important and deleterious effects cbayer Mar 2014 #151
Well if you think somebody that doesn't understand edhopper Mar 2014 #152
Ah, and we were having such a nice, civil conversation. cbayer Mar 2014 #153
I think it's a matter of challenging beliefs that are patently untrue edhopper Mar 2014 #154
Pointing out errors or challenging someone is not the same thing as mocking. cbayer Mar 2014 #155
Mocking is reserved to the patently ridiculous beliefs edhopper Mar 2014 #156
and with that, the entire category of "fiction" was wiped out. Warren Stupidity Mar 2014 #148
And are you not also cherry picking? Starboard Tack Mar 2014 #123
I'm not accusing the Jews of committing genocide. I'm reporting what the Bible says they did. stopbush Mar 2014 #166
all the horrible and goofy parts are "metaphor" and only a vanishingly small bit of all christians Warren Stupidity Mar 2014 #105
Q: What's the definition of a "religious metaphor"? stopbush Mar 2014 #109
or something so horrendous to modern sensibility that it has to be disappeared. Warren Stupidity Mar 2014 #114
Actually in my church we are in the majority. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #126
Across all christian denominations in the US, "liberal christians" are a distinct minority. Warren Stupidity Mar 2014 #130
Really. Are you talking about the people eho make up the denomination or the hrmjustin Mar 2014 #131
No. ACROSS ALL DEMONINATIONS. Warren Stupidity Mar 2014 #132
Of course one has to cherry pick. cbayer Mar 2014 #118
From that perspective, most of the Bible is rotten fruit. stopbush Mar 2014 #122
No, it's not mostly rotten fruit, though there is some in there. cbayer Mar 2014 #124
Of course the Bible and the Constitution have similarities. stopbush Mar 2014 #127
Ok, let's go through this. cbayer Mar 2014 #129
Of course it's mostly rotten fruit. stopbush Mar 2014 #167
Jesus is pretty rotten and a loathsome creature? Wow, that's a stretch. cbayer Mar 2014 #168
Apparently, you've not read his words. stopbush Mar 2014 #169
Cherry picking for the rotten cherries. cbayer Mar 2014 #170
Distortions? Spoken like the true religious apologist stopbush Mar 2014 #171
Ok, I'm an apologist and you are a religophobe. cbayer Mar 2014 #174
I'm more of an anti-theist than a religophobe. stopbush Mar 2014 #175
Religonophobe, anti-theist - it's all the same ugly crap, imo. cbayer Mar 2014 #176
You act as if I'm the only person who thinks Jesus in a monster. stopbush Mar 2014 #177
Oh, no. I am very aware that you are not the only one. cbayer Mar 2014 #178
No comment on Mr Lewis' thoughts? stopbush Mar 2014 #179
I'm not a defender of specific religious beliefs and have no interest in cbayer Mar 2014 #180
If you're not interested in debating things like the virgin birth stopbush Mar 2014 #181
Because faith isn't believing in things that have been proven false. cbayer Mar 2014 #182
Who gets to decide what is a good fruit and what's bad? trotsky Mar 2014 #133
it depends on the argument being made Warren Stupidity Mar 2014 #134
It goes like this: trotsky Mar 2014 #135
It all stems from a disturbing lack of critical evaluation Act_of_Reparation Mar 2014 #137
Was was he doing EvilAL Mar 2014 #59
Another great question. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #60
I do. EvilAL Mar 2014 #61
We disagree. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #62
You don't wonder EvilAL Mar 2014 #63
I never said I don't wonder. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #64
Do you have a hypothesis EvilAL Mar 2014 #66
I assume he found something to do. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #67
hahah, ok then.. EvilAL Mar 2014 #68
You too. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #69
He might be addicted to Sudoku like I am. cbayer Mar 2014 #70
hah, yeah EvilAL Mar 2014 #71
Much of that is from years as a moderator. cbayer Mar 2014 #72
I am an atheist, but in a multiverse, a god would hardly run out of things to do prior to creating tblue37 Mar 2014 #79
Interesting question. AlbertCat Mar 2014 #158
I like to think God got the ball rolling on it. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #159
I like to think God got the ball rolling on it. AlbertCat Mar 2014 #161
Well I believe there is a God. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #162
Yeah, writers of Iron Age stories understood the Big Bang. Goblinmonger Mar 2014 #4
Bingo. Act_of_Reparation Mar 2014 #6
Yeah place, time and context count. Doesn't make it bullshit. Just what it was. pinto Mar 2014 #10
It's not a dismissal of "earlier concepts" skepticscott Mar 2014 #20
I'm not dismissing "early concepts" Act_of_Reparation Mar 2014 #27
That was not my point Goblinmonger. pinto Mar 2014 #9
The Big Bang and Genesis both speak to the beginning of the known universe. AlbertCat Mar 2014 #160
Yeah they do. It's an interesting parallel. pinto Mar 2014 #164
I thought something like that when I was in elementary school, but I read differently now struggle4progress Mar 2014 #7
It's an interesting speculation but I don't think so. rug Mar 2014 #11
Yeah, of course it's just speculation. What caught me was those guys in the eastern Mediterranean pinto Mar 2014 #12
Stepping out. Actually sleeping out. Mild night, stars and all that. pinto Mar 2014 #13
????? left-of-center2012 Mar 2014 #14
No space. No time. Quantum fluctuations. AtheistCrusader Mar 2014 #36
Lawrence Krauss explains it in "A Universe From Nothing." stopbush Mar 2014 #81
Yes. The Genesis story is entirely scientific. LiberalAndProud Mar 2014 #15
No Warpy Mar 2014 #16
Why not? Both try to explain why we are here and... TreasonousBastard Mar 2014 #17
Because that's what I call a lie... uriel1972 Mar 2014 #19
^This^ mr blur Mar 2014 #21
You do realize that it is impossible for our species to... TreasonousBastard Mar 2014 #32
Who does it hurt? Act_of_Reparation Mar 2014 #34
That's a separate problem with our species. TreasonousBastard Mar 2014 #35
Would you care to qualify that statement? Act_of_Reparation Mar 2014 #37
It ends inquiry. AtheistCrusader Mar 2014 #38
Assuming any conclusion can often lead to an end to inquiry. cbayer Mar 2014 #45
That's the thing. They are. AtheistCrusader Mar 2014 #46
It is erroneous to assume that religious people don't question or cbayer Mar 2014 #48
Let's see Michael Behe walk back some of his irreducibly complex claims from the Kitzmiller AtheistCrusader Mar 2014 #50
Exactly. Rigid, tight-sphincter'd, blinder'd thinking can appear anywhere... villager Mar 2014 #51
Agree. I find dogmatic thinking and rigid stances very disturbing. (nt) cbayer Mar 2014 #52
Well, except when they're *your* dogmatic thinking and rigid stances. trotsky Mar 2014 #190
Proof only applies to math. AlbertCat Mar 2014 #163
Ah, AlbertCat! That's so cute, you trying to teach me about science and stuff. cbayer Mar 2014 #165
trying to teach me about science and stuff. AlbertCat Mar 2014 #187
That's because I'm scientifically illiterate. cbayer Mar 2014 #188
LOL. pinto Mar 2014 #189
He really got me on that one! cbayer Mar 2014 #191
Well yeah, he kinda did. trotsky Mar 2014 #192
Tides come in tides go out. You can't explain that. pokerfan Mar 2014 #58
Please, please, please tell me that he didn't actually say that! cbayer Mar 2014 #65
I could but I would be lying pokerfan Mar 2014 #73
And we are worried about the religious right not getting evolution? cbayer Mar 2014 #74
I would rather say I don't know LostOne4Ever Mar 2014 #23
It may have looked silly to them at the time, but... TreasonousBastard Mar 2014 #33
Yes. I could also set about trying to understand eclipses. AtheistCrusader Mar 2014 #39
"that's the best they could do." Warren Stupidity Mar 2014 #56
On the contrary, science has a very good, in-depth idea of "how we got here." stopbush Mar 2014 #83
There is no way to prove or disprove that "God" is... TreasonousBastard Mar 2014 #89
Agreed. It's not a 50-50 proposition that god exists and was involved in creation. stopbush Mar 2014 #93
How do you figure that fairies and werewolves have a better chance of being real? cbayer Mar 2014 #96
What conceit allows you to believe that god has a better chance of existing than fairies stopbush Mar 2014 #111
faeries and werewolves are far less ridiculous. Warren Stupidity Mar 2014 #115
What conceit allows you to believe that they are equally possible? cbayer Mar 2014 #117
No Lordquinton Mar 2014 #18
Actually, it blends them into two stories BillStein Mar 2014 #92
Aren't you more or less LostOne4Ever Mar 2014 #22
Science attempts to show whether something is true. Religion attempts to show why something is true. stopbush Mar 2014 #86
An almost perfect example of scientism -- LTX Mar 2014 #172
How so? Without an explanation, you're engaging in drive-by posting. stopbush Mar 2014 #173
It is dreadfully slippery LTX Mar 2014 #183
You're confusing "truth" with what is "true." stopbush Mar 2014 #184
Sophistry. n/t LTX Mar 2014 #186
I meant to note the similarities, not equate them. Did it poorly, but some good discussion's ensued. pinto Mar 2014 #185
Sure I guess. trotsky Mar 2014 #24
Almost by definition the Big Bang is the Genesis of the universe goldent Mar 2014 #25
The Big Bang wasn't a religious concept. n/t trotsky Mar 2014 #28
The concept expressed in Genesis was that the universe had a beginning. goldent Mar 2014 #75
Oh sweet Jesus. Goblinmonger Mar 2014 #77
Hey, I didn't say Genesis had exclusive rights to the concept that the goldent Mar 2014 #78
I repeat, the Big Bang was not a religious concept. trotsky Mar 2014 #90
No. Feral Child Mar 2014 #26
No. Iggo Mar 2014 #29
genesis is really about the dawn of human civilization unblock Mar 2014 #30
Which "In the Beginning"? edhopper Mar 2014 #31
Probably. jeepnstein Mar 2014 #40
"Non-believers who have anger directed towards the Church" Act_of_Reparation Mar 2014 #41
Not so much these days. jeepnstein Mar 2014 #42
How does that poison the well? cbayer Mar 2014 #43
Because it is a perfect example of poisoning the well. Act_of_Reparation Mar 2014 #47
I didn't read her post as saying there was no reason to listen to them, cbayer Mar 2014 #49
Fascinating discussion going on right now on "Forum" on exactly this subject. cbayer Mar 2014 #44
That's some rally the troops code language there, isn't it? Goblinmonger Mar 2014 #53
Just coming back in here. Perhaps I should clarify - what strikes me is the parallel. pinto Mar 2014 #54
Problem I have is this. Maybe I can make it more clear. Goblinmonger Mar 2014 #55
See your points. And largely agree. Lots of creation stories in different cultures. pinto Mar 2014 #57
Maybe! Sarah Ibarruri Mar 2014 #76
The Priest that came up with the Big Bang theory mmonk Mar 2014 #91
No CFLDem Mar 2014 #102
If it was, "God" would have said so. tridim Mar 2014 #103
No. Gore1FL Mar 2014 #106
If we live in a multiverse, and it's looking more likely that we are... Kablooie Mar 2014 #107
I think so Prophet 451 Mar 2014 #157
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