Religion

stopbush

(24,831 posts)

171. Distortions? Spoken like the true religious apologist

Wed Mar 26, 2014, 02:07 AM

Mar 2014

who ignores the plain meaning of words and instead looks to twist or ignore those words to fit their portrait of Jesus as Mr Wonderful.

Case in point, you conflate two different quotes by Jesus in an attempt to make your point. The actual quotes found in Matthew are:

"And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." - Matthew 19:16-19

Here, Jesus is supposedly citing the Ten Commandments, but he only cites five of the ten, and those five are entirely secular in nature. Notice that Jesus doesn't here mention honoring god or making no graven images or keeping the sabbath. The "sixth" commandment he cites - Love they neighbor - isn't among the Ten Commandments.

The second quote is:

"Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, 'Master, which is the great commandment in the law?' Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." - Matthew 22:35-40.

BTW - Jesus is quoting Leviticus 19:18 when he says, "Love they neighbor as yourself." That particular quote is Yahweh speaking to Moses. The "love thy neighbor" thingee didn't originate with Jesus.

Importantly, Jesus says the first great commandment is to love the Lord God, which means that you follow the law laid down by the lord god in all its particulars. Only after that does one consider the second great commandment.

Like most people who haven't studied the Bible in any depth, you're confused about what was actually uttered by Jesus. I can't blame you for that. Most people have a rather malleable knowledge of the actual phrases and context of the Bible.

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Was the Big Bang the Genesis? [View all] pinto Mar 2014 OP

No CBGLuthier Mar 2014 #1

May be. pinto Mar 2014 #2

Interesting question. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #3

It crossed my mind as religious allegory and scientific theory. Neither define a "before", yet both pinto Mar 2014 #5

Yes they do. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #8

If a day could have been millions or billions of years instead of 24 hours, stopbush Mar 2014 #80

I agree that Genesis is not science. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #82

I agree. Too bad the message sucked as much as the bad science. stopbush Mar 2014 #84

Genesis was really written to set up the religion. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #85

Genesis was written to place men (not women, BTW) at the center of god's created universe. stopbush Mar 2014 #87

Unfortunately you are right that it was used to keep women as property hrmjustin Mar 2014 #88

The Old Testament is a horrible, horrible document, and the NT isn't much better. stopbush Mar 2014 #94

Wait. Did you just say that biblical philosophy is as bad and maybe worse, than fascism? cbayer Mar 2014 #95

Yes I did. Have you ever read the Bible, specifically, the law of the Bible? stopbush Mar 2014 #101

Are you not able to read critically? cbayer Mar 2014 #116

And I thought we were getting along. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #97

Most certainly not, you fascist!! cbayer Mar 2014 #98

I just knew I was an evildoer! hrmjustin Mar 2014 #99

You tell me - are we supposed to take the Bible as a whole, or are we to cherry pick it, stopbush Mar 2014 #100

I believe in a God of love. The people who wrote that stuff were tribal and war like. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #104

You're a cherry picker, for sure. stopbush Mar 2014 #108

I think it takes guts to believe and nit to believe in many parts of this world. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #110

I lived in NYC for 12 years. Made my living singing, often in churches. stopbush Mar 2014 #112

I understand how you feel. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #113

Why would a cherry picked faith be a cheap commodity. cbayer Mar 2014 #119

Because it demands nothing beyond the cherry picker's opinion. stopbush Mar 2014 #120

Where did you get the idea that something must be "demanded" in order cbayer Mar 2014 #121

I was explaining why I called faith cheap. stopbush Mar 2014 #125

I don't know about that. cbayer Mar 2014 #128

Religious beliefs aren't make believe - people hold them and some firmly believe them. stopbush Mar 2014 #136

You can't legitimately say that something is make believe unless you cbayer Mar 2014 #138

Saddam's WMD have still not been proven to not exist. Warren Stupidity Mar 2014 #139

Here's one for you: the Virgin birth of Jesus. stopbush Mar 2014 #140

You really don't get the basic edhopper Mar 2014 #141

That's right, ed. I really don't get the basic idea of critical inquiry. cbayer Mar 2014 #142

I thought we were talking about edhopper Mar 2014 #143

Stories are stories. cbayer Mar 2014 #144

Would mythical edhopper Mar 2014 #145

My disposition? I don't know about that, but allegory, metaphor, story, parable cbayer Mar 2014 #146

Yes edhopper Mar 2014 #147

I'm not going to be in total agreement with you about "fictional". cbayer Mar 2014 #149

Because you live in a World where edhopper Mar 2014 #150

I understand that some beliefs have important and deleterious effects cbayer Mar 2014 #151

Well if you think somebody that doesn't understand edhopper Mar 2014 #152

Ah, and we were having such a nice, civil conversation. cbayer Mar 2014 #153

I think it's a matter of challenging beliefs that are patently untrue edhopper Mar 2014 #154

Pointing out errors or challenging someone is not the same thing as mocking. cbayer Mar 2014 #155

Mocking is reserved to the patently ridiculous beliefs edhopper Mar 2014 #156

and with that, the entire category of "fiction" was wiped out. Warren Stupidity Mar 2014 #148

And are you not also cherry picking? Starboard Tack Mar 2014 #123

I'm not accusing the Jews of committing genocide. I'm reporting what the Bible says they did. stopbush Mar 2014 #166

all the horrible and goofy parts are "metaphor" and only a vanishingly small bit of all christians Warren Stupidity Mar 2014 #105

Q: What's the definition of a "religious metaphor"? stopbush Mar 2014 #109

or something so horrendous to modern sensibility that it has to be disappeared. Warren Stupidity Mar 2014 #114

Actually in my church we are in the majority. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #126

Across all christian denominations in the US, "liberal christians" are a distinct minority. Warren Stupidity Mar 2014 #130

Really. Are you talking about the people eho make up the denomination or the hrmjustin Mar 2014 #131

No. ACROSS ALL DEMONINATIONS. Warren Stupidity Mar 2014 #132

Of course one has to cherry pick. cbayer Mar 2014 #118

From that perspective, most of the Bible is rotten fruit. stopbush Mar 2014 #122

No, it's not mostly rotten fruit, though there is some in there. cbayer Mar 2014 #124

Of course the Bible and the Constitution have similarities. stopbush Mar 2014 #127

Ok, let's go through this. cbayer Mar 2014 #129

Of course it's mostly rotten fruit. stopbush Mar 2014 #167

Jesus is pretty rotten and a loathsome creature? Wow, that's a stretch. cbayer Mar 2014 #168

Apparently, you've not read his words. stopbush Mar 2014 #169

Cherry picking for the rotten cherries. cbayer Mar 2014 #170

Distortions? Spoken like the true religious apologist stopbush Mar 2014 #171

Ok, I'm an apologist and you are a religophobe. cbayer Mar 2014 #174

I'm more of an anti-theist than a religophobe. stopbush Mar 2014 #175

Religonophobe, anti-theist - it's all the same ugly crap, imo. cbayer Mar 2014 #176

You act as if I'm the only person who thinks Jesus in a monster. stopbush Mar 2014 #177

Oh, no. I am very aware that you are not the only one. cbayer Mar 2014 #178

No comment on Mr Lewis' thoughts? stopbush Mar 2014 #179

I'm not a defender of specific religious beliefs and have no interest in cbayer Mar 2014 #180

If you're not interested in debating things like the virgin birth stopbush Mar 2014 #181

Because faith isn't believing in things that have been proven false. cbayer Mar 2014 #182

Who gets to decide what is a good fruit and what's bad? trotsky Mar 2014 #133

it depends on the argument being made Warren Stupidity Mar 2014 #134

It goes like this: trotsky Mar 2014 #135

It all stems from a disturbing lack of critical evaluation Act_of_Reparation Mar 2014 #137

Was was he doing EvilAL Mar 2014 #59

Another great question. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #60

I do. EvilAL Mar 2014 #61

We disagree. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #62

You don't wonder EvilAL Mar 2014 #63

I never said I don't wonder. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #64

Do you have a hypothesis EvilAL Mar 2014 #66

I assume he found something to do. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #67

hahah, ok then.. EvilAL Mar 2014 #68

You too. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #69

He might be addicted to Sudoku like I am. cbayer Mar 2014 #70

hah, yeah EvilAL Mar 2014 #71

Much of that is from years as a moderator. cbayer Mar 2014 #72

I am an atheist, but in a multiverse, a god would hardly run out of things to do prior to creating tblue37 Mar 2014 #79

Interesting question. AlbertCat Mar 2014 #158

I like to think God got the ball rolling on it. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #159

I like to think God got the ball rolling on it. AlbertCat Mar 2014 #161

Well I believe there is a God. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #162

Yeah, writers of Iron Age stories understood the Big Bang. Goblinmonger Mar 2014 #4

Bingo. Act_of_Reparation Mar 2014 #6

Yeah place, time and context count. Doesn't make it bullshit. Just what it was. pinto Mar 2014 #10

It's not a dismissal of "earlier concepts" skepticscott Mar 2014 #20

I'm not dismissing "early concepts" Act_of_Reparation Mar 2014 #27

That was not my point Goblinmonger. pinto Mar 2014 #9

The Big Bang and Genesis both speak to the beginning of the known universe. AlbertCat Mar 2014 #160

Yeah they do. It's an interesting parallel. pinto Mar 2014 #164

I thought something like that when I was in elementary school, but I read differently now struggle4progress Mar 2014 #7

It's an interesting speculation but I don't think so. rug Mar 2014 #11

Yeah, of course it's just speculation. What caught me was those guys in the eastern Mediterranean pinto Mar 2014 #12

Stepping out. Actually sleeping out. Mild night, stars and all that. pinto Mar 2014 #13

????? left-of-center2012 Mar 2014 #14

No space. No time. Quantum fluctuations. AtheistCrusader Mar 2014 #36

Lawrence Krauss explains it in "A Universe From Nothing." stopbush Mar 2014 #81

Yes. The Genesis story is entirely scientific. LiberalAndProud Mar 2014 #15

No Warpy Mar 2014 #16

Why not? Both try to explain why we are here and... TreasonousBastard Mar 2014 #17

Because that's what I call a lie... uriel1972 Mar 2014 #19

^This^ mr blur Mar 2014 #21

You do realize that it is impossible for our species to... TreasonousBastard Mar 2014 #32

Who does it hurt? Act_of_Reparation Mar 2014 #34

That's a separate problem with our species. TreasonousBastard Mar 2014 #35

Would you care to qualify that statement? Act_of_Reparation Mar 2014 #37

It ends inquiry. AtheistCrusader Mar 2014 #38

Assuming any conclusion can often lead to an end to inquiry. cbayer Mar 2014 #45

That's the thing. They are. AtheistCrusader Mar 2014 #46

It is erroneous to assume that religious people don't question or cbayer Mar 2014 #48

Let's see Michael Behe walk back some of his irreducibly complex claims from the Kitzmiller AtheistCrusader Mar 2014 #50

Exactly. Rigid, tight-sphincter'd, blinder'd thinking can appear anywhere... villager Mar 2014 #51

Agree. I find dogmatic thinking and rigid stances very disturbing. (nt) cbayer Mar 2014 #52

Well, except when they're *your* dogmatic thinking and rigid stances. trotsky Mar 2014 #190

Proof only applies to math. AlbertCat Mar 2014 #163

Ah, AlbertCat! That's so cute, you trying to teach me about science and stuff. cbayer Mar 2014 #165

trying to teach me about science and stuff. AlbertCat Mar 2014 #187

That's because I'm scientifically illiterate. cbayer Mar 2014 #188

LOL. pinto Mar 2014 #189

He really got me on that one! cbayer Mar 2014 #191

Well yeah, he kinda did. trotsky Mar 2014 #192

Tides come in tides go out. You can't explain that. pokerfan Mar 2014 #58

Please, please, please tell me that he didn't actually say that! cbayer Mar 2014 #65

I could but I would be lying pokerfan Mar 2014 #73

And we are worried about the religious right not getting evolution? cbayer Mar 2014 #74

I would rather say I don't know LostOne4Ever Mar 2014 #23

It may have looked silly to them at the time, but... TreasonousBastard Mar 2014 #33

Yes. I could also set about trying to understand eclipses. AtheistCrusader Mar 2014 #39

"that's the best they could do." Warren Stupidity Mar 2014 #56

On the contrary, science has a very good, in-depth idea of "how we got here." stopbush Mar 2014 #83

There is no way to prove or disprove that "God" is... TreasonousBastard Mar 2014 #89

Agreed. It's not a 50-50 proposition that god exists and was involved in creation. stopbush Mar 2014 #93

How do you figure that fairies and werewolves have a better chance of being real? cbayer Mar 2014 #96

What conceit allows you to believe that god has a better chance of existing than fairies stopbush Mar 2014 #111

faeries and werewolves are far less ridiculous. Warren Stupidity Mar 2014 #115

What conceit allows you to believe that they are equally possible? cbayer Mar 2014 #117

No Lordquinton Mar 2014 #18

Actually, it blends them into two stories BillStein Mar 2014 #92

Aren't you more or less LostOne4Ever Mar 2014 #22

Science attempts to show whether something is true. Religion attempts to show why something is true. stopbush Mar 2014 #86

An almost perfect example of scientism -- LTX Mar 2014 #172

How so? Without an explanation, you're engaging in drive-by posting. stopbush Mar 2014 #173

It is dreadfully slippery LTX Mar 2014 #183

You're confusing "truth" with what is "true." stopbush Mar 2014 #184

Sophistry. n/t LTX Mar 2014 #186

I meant to note the similarities, not equate them. Did it poorly, but some good discussion's ensued. pinto Mar 2014 #185

Sure I guess. trotsky Mar 2014 #24

Almost by definition the Big Bang is the Genesis of the universe goldent Mar 2014 #25

The Big Bang wasn't a religious concept. n/t trotsky Mar 2014 #28

The concept expressed in Genesis was that the universe had a beginning. goldent Mar 2014 #75

Oh sweet Jesus. Goblinmonger Mar 2014 #77

Hey, I didn't say Genesis had exclusive rights to the concept that the goldent Mar 2014 #78

I repeat, the Big Bang was not a religious concept. trotsky Mar 2014 #90

No. Feral Child Mar 2014 #26

No. Iggo Mar 2014 #29

genesis is really about the dawn of human civilization unblock Mar 2014 #30

Which "In the Beginning"? edhopper Mar 2014 #31

Probably. jeepnstein Mar 2014 #40

"Non-believers who have anger directed towards the Church" Act_of_Reparation Mar 2014 #41

Not so much these days. jeepnstein Mar 2014 #42

How does that poison the well? cbayer Mar 2014 #43

Because it is a perfect example of poisoning the well. Act_of_Reparation Mar 2014 #47

I didn't read her post as saying there was no reason to listen to them, cbayer Mar 2014 #49

Fascinating discussion going on right now on "Forum" on exactly this subject. cbayer Mar 2014 #44

That's some rally the troops code language there, isn't it? Goblinmonger Mar 2014 #53

Just coming back in here. Perhaps I should clarify - what strikes me is the parallel. pinto Mar 2014 #54

Problem I have is this. Maybe I can make it more clear. Goblinmonger Mar 2014 #55

See your points. And largely agree. Lots of creation stories in different cultures. pinto Mar 2014 #57

Maybe! Sarah Ibarruri Mar 2014 #76

The Priest that came up with the Big Bang theory mmonk Mar 2014 #91

No CFLDem Mar 2014 #102

If it was, "God" would have said so. tridim Mar 2014 #103

No. Gore1FL Mar 2014 #106

If we live in a multiverse, and it's looking more likely that we are... Kablooie Mar 2014 #107

I think so Prophet 451 Mar 2014 #157