Religion

BainsBane

(57,766 posts)

84. What is so special is the First Amendment

Reply to Humanist_Activist (Reply #83)

Sun May 25, 2014, 01:32 AM

May 2014

take it up with James Madison.

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Federal judge dismisses atheists' challenge to IRS [View all] rug May 2014 OP

Good. They need to leave tax exemptions for houses of worship alone. hrmjustin May 2014 #1

Why? rickford66 May 2014 #2

Because many can't stay open without them. hrmjustin May 2014 #3

So ? nt eppur_se_muova May 2014 #6

Well the good thing is that the exemption stays. hrmjustin May 2014 #7

Why is this a good thing? pokerfan May 2014 #9

So that struggeling houses of worship can survive and provide services for the community. hrmjustin May 2014 #11

Lots of businesses struggle pokerfan May 2014 #12

We are not only talking churches here are we? hrmjustin May 2014 #13

Do houses of worship deserve special consideration? pokerfan May 2014 #14

Non profits get tax exempt status. houses of worship for the most part are not out to make money. hrmjustin May 2014 #16

Houses of worship deserve special consideration pokerfan May 2014 #20

n8n profits get tax exemot status. if you have an issue with that contact your hrmjustin May 2014 #21

Got it. Thanks! pokerfan May 2014 #25

Non profits get tax exempt staus. do you agree? hrmjustin May 2014 #26

I said I got it, OK? pokerfan May 2014 #27

ok. hrmjustin May 2014 #28

Do you seriously not see the double standard? pokerfan May 2014 #33

So your saying they only eant them to disclose their donors and fill out this7s form? hrmjustin May 2014 #36

Should non profits get the equivalent of a parsonage? phil89 May 2014 #40

If they need it I have no issue with it. hrmjustin May 2014 #41

At least you're consistent. phil89 May 2014 #42

Thank you. I have no issue with reforming a few things to make things fairer but I don't want to get hrmjustin May 2014 #43

An organization need not be theistic to qualify for a religious exemption under current law struggle4progress May 2014 #44

How do we know that, houses of worship are exempt from the same oversight rules of... Humanist_Activist May 2014 #63

I am saying that I want the tax exemption left in place. I have no issue with oversight. hrmjustin May 2014 #64

The current rules don't allow for oversight, and the IRS refuses to enforce what rules do exist... Humanist_Activist May 2014 #66

As I said I want the exemption but have no issue with oversight. hrmjustin May 2014 #67

They should only get the exemption for being a non-profit, not for being a place of worship. Humanist_Activist May 2014 #69

I understand how you feel. hrmjustin May 2014 #70

I don't think you do. Humanist_Activist May 2014 #71

Well then call your congressman and complain. hrmjustin May 2014 #72

Why? What's the point, we aren't really citizens you know... Humanist_Activist May 2014 #73

Bullshit! hrmjustin May 2014 #74

Of course I know about you, you are an apologist for religious privilege... Humanist_Activist May 2014 #75

By privilege, do you mean the First Amendment? BainsBane May 2014 #76

Does the First Amendment say that religions and religious people are to be treated better... Humanist_Activist May 2014 #78

It prohibits the establishment of a state religion BainsBane May 2014 #79

Being given different standards to follow... Humanist_Activist May 2014 #80

Again, that is an issue of how the courts have interpeted the First Amendment BainsBane May 2014 #81

So? Not criticizing him for being a Christian, but for defending his religion's... Humanist_Activist May 2014 #83

What is so special is the First Amendment BainsBane May 2014 #84

But the First Amendment doesn't give churches tax exemption. Humanist_Activist May 2014 #85

If my church didn't have tax breaks we would not be able to stay open for long or we would have to hrmjustin May 2014 #77

Why should I care if you take me seriously? You are a "soft" theocrat... Humanist_Activist May 2014 #82

I can't believe this place sometimes. hrmjustin May 2014 #87

When you stop whining about persecution take the time to look up what privilege actually is. rug May 2014 #89

Oh please, a post by a guy who's so fucking proud being the member of a hate organization... Humanist_Activist May 2014 #92

And you wonder why your voice is incredible. rug May 2014 #97

you just like to say things don't you. hrmjustin May 2014 #99

! rug May 2014 #88

Are you having a bad day? cbayer May 2014 #91

While they have been exempted from certain annual filings, they are cbayer May 2014 #65

Get back to me when those laws are actually enforced, Christian churches, in particular, seem... Humanist_Activist May 2014 #68

The IRS should be enforcing them. cbayer May 2014 #90

But if they don't make a profit edhopper May 2014 #47

thery certainly should have to explain why they make that much and should not pay taxes on it. hrmjustin May 2014 #48

Of course this will never happen edhopper May 2014 #57

This is an IRS problem. cbayer May 2014 #58

So they can tax the Mega Churches edhopper May 2014 #60

If the churches do not meet the criteria that are in place cbayer May 2014 #61

They don't have to meet the same criteria as other charitable organizations. eomer May 2014 #101

Not true for the most part. cbayer May 2014 #102

I'm talking about the "exempt purposes" rule of section 501(c)(3). eomer May 2014 #105

Other 501c3 organizations okasha May 2014 #107

You said that so much better than I did. cbayer May 2014 #109

I've been (and am) okasha May 2014 #110

In New Orleans, the catholic hospitals provided the only access to health care for the vast cbayer May 2014 #111

Organizations that aren't religious have to be educational, scientific or charitable or promote arts eomer May 2014 #112

So? okasha May 2014 #113

So cbayer's post that I replied to was incorrect as I said it was. eomer May 2014 #114

She was absolutely correct. okasha May 2014 #115

Her statement would be read by most as saying they have to meet the same rules as other non profits. eomer May 2014 #116

Do you think arts and scientific organizations should also loose the exemption? cbayer May 2014 #117

No, I think the arts and science inherently serve the public good. eomer May 2014 #118

And I think that religious organizations inherently serve the public good. cbayer May 2014 #119

Yes, we apparently disagree about this (and about the meaning of the word "inherent"). eomer May 2014 #121

And I would argue that not every instance of "art" contributes and that cbayer May 2014 #122

Everything someone calls science is not necessarily science. Creationism definitely isn't. eomer May 2014 #123

And not everything someone calls religion is necessarily religion. cbayer May 2014 #124

As a working artist, okasha May 2014 #125

So the question becomes, do we set certain criteria for these groups or not. cbayer May 2014 #126

I think you're failing to distinguish between non-profit and tax-exempt organizations. okasha May 2014 #127

Wow, this is amazingly helpful. cbayer May 2014 #128

Thank you. I'm glad it helps. okasha May 2014 #131

I think going through the actual process is what it takes to really understand this. cbayer May 2014 #133

I will agree to you that they should not be exempted just for being religious. cbayer May 2014 #108

Make the irs do it. hrmjustin May 2014 #59

Those services can't be provided by other groups? LiberalFighter May 2014 #52

Well we disagree. hrmjustin May 2014 #53

They can be but they often aren't. cbayer May 2014 #55

If it involves charitable work no. LiberalFighter May 2014 #135

Charitable organizations always have some overhead that doesn't go directly to services. cbayer May 2014 #136

Overhead is fine. If for the purpose of administrating the charity. LiberalFighter May 2014 #137

Running the church is often administering the charity. cbayer May 2014 #138

Perhaps you aren't aware okasha May 2014 #139

I'm involved in a local debate about drug-testing as a condition for a meal at a community center. pinto May 2014 #56

Yes they can. rickford66 May 2014 #8

Most churches are nit mega churches. Most churches struggle financially. hrmjustin May 2014 #10

Well the struggling ones like struggling businesses will have little or no taxable income. rickford66 May 2014 #15

I believe that houses of worship should pay no taxes. hrmjustin May 2014 #17

I believe I shouldn't pay taxes but .... rickford66 May 2014 #18

Individuals or organizations? hrmjustin May 2014 #19

How many people gathered in his name did Jesus say? Three I think? rickford66 May 2014 #22

I don't get your response so I will try to answer. hrmjustin May 2014 #23

Matthew 18:20 rickford66 May 2014 #29

I have no problem with dealing with abuses. It would likely make it easier on other houses of hrmjustin May 2014 #32

Tax filings might expose those abuses and separate the the honest from the dishonest. Just saying. rickford66 May 2014 #35

Neither Graham nor Robertson okasha May 2014 #24

So all the cash given to these guys is accounted for? Baloney! rickford66 May 2014 #31

I didn't say that. okasha May 2014 #39

Sorry, I appologize. I still claim they are scam artists. rickford66 May 2014 #50

And on that, okasha May 2014 #54

What is unusual though is that some of the TV networks such as Daystar also receive the tax TexasTowelie May 2014 #34

those type of things seem like they are taking advantage of the law. hrmjustin May 2014 #37

From the opinion: struggle4progress May 2014 #4

Thanks for the link. rug May 2014 #5

No, judges just don't want to open a shit can... MellowDem May 2014 #30

You should read the opinion, attending to how the judge treated the various arguments struggle4progress May 2014 #38

By saying atheists can apply as a "church"... MellowDem May 2014 #45

Words mean different things in different contexts struggle4progress May 2014 #46

It's not a semantic squabble... MellowDem May 2014 #86

The court certainly does NOT say: "church" in this context just means any non-profit struggle4progress May 2014 #93

If they believe atheists can form a church... MellowDem May 2014 #100

I've leave to you the task of discovering how the IRS determines whether an entity is a church struggle4progress May 2014 #104

Completely arbitrarily... MellowDem May 2014 #106

Suggestion: Htom Sirveaux May 2014 #94

The language comes from statute. The administrative criteria represent efforts struggle4progress May 2014 #96

Well, ok. My house and my cubicle are my 'church'. AtheistCrusader May 2014 #49

File for it. It doesn't require much paperwork. cbayer May 2014 #51

The IRS will determine whether or not an organization is a "church" by considering struggle4progress May 2014 #95

Most likely he would not meet the criteria. cbayer May 2014 #98

Is he not aware of the ruling that found that atheist organizations cbayer May 2014 #62

Which is a terrible ruling in and of itself and not good precedent... MellowDem May 2014 #103

Church Audits - "Reasonable Belief" Requirement (IRS) pinto May 2014 #120

Hmmm�. "reasonably believes". cbayer May 2014 #129

Yeah. Mushy is right. Looks like the group took the wrong approach in its suit. And the IRS, pinto May 2014 #130

I agree with you on prop h8. okasha May 2014 #132

I think the line was lobbying and dollars for legislation. Well hidden, apparently, pinto May 2014 #134