Religion

struggle4progress

(126,683 posts)

116. The Galway Horror Part II

Reply to struggle4progress (Original post)

Wed Jun 18, 2014, 11:20 PM

Jun 2014

Kevin Clarke | Jun 18 2014 - 12:27pm

“Babies born inside the institutions were denied baptism and, if they died from the illness and disease rife in such facilities, also denied a Christian burial.” It is a sentence, unattributed to any source, which repeats — either word for word or in a close approximation — in hundreds of articles concerning the .. children in Tuam, Galway between 1925 and 1961. This appalling sacramental indifference is referenced in major U.S. and U.K. publications and cited in leading online opinion journals like Salon as more evidence of the cruelty of the Bon Secours sisters who ran the home and the Catholic Church in Ireland in general ...

Father Fintan Monahan, Tuam’s diocesan secretary, told me this morning that the diocese has in its records thousands of baptismal certificates for the children that were born or brought into the home in Tuam. Beyond that physical evidence of the baptismal record, he asked the diocesan archivist to look further into the issue to see if any evidence of a past policy to refuse to baptize children born out of wedlock could be teased out of the diocesan archives. “We can find no evidence that it was ever the policy,” he reports

Beyond that, as a priest, he has never heard of such a refusal. It is not a normal practice in Tuam today, he says, or anywhere he can think of in Ireland, and it “would not have been a normal practice <to deny baptism in the past,>” he says ...

Monahan can only speculate, of course, and perhaps there has been enough speculation on this matter as it is, that journalists may have heard stories of individual priests who may have resisted baptizing children who were born to unmarried women and drawn the wrong conclusions from such anecdotes. That of course does not excuse or explain the legions of journalists who have replayed this sentence (or a variation of it), without citation, over and over and over again ...

http://americamagazine.org/content/all-things/galway-horror-part-ii

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Tuam mother and baby home: the trouble with the septic tank story [View all] struggle4progress Jun 2014 OP

So 'Some of the 796 children's remains are in a FORMER septic tank' AtheistCrusader Jun 2014 #1

What we know is: (1) Catherine Corless obtained death certificates struggle4progress Jun 2014 #2

... A preliminary examination of the site is likely to involve testing .. struggle4progress Jun 2014 #3

That's a possibility. But the septic tank was in use at the turn of the century. AtheistCrusader Jun 2014 #24

Totally. It's really no big deal now. trotsky Jun 2014 #10

They need to be focusing on how those women and children lived Warpy Jun 2014 #4

The institution seems to have been a county institution: though administered struggle4progress Jun 2014 #5

The truth is that women who got pregnant outside marriage were so despised Warpy Jun 2014 #32

The money was 10 shillings per head per year, I think, struggle4progress Jun 2014 #51

Why am I not surprised skepticscott Jun 2014 #6

Feel free to post anything that actually adds to our understanding of the story struggle4progress Jun 2014 #7

One point: until enforcement of child labor laws, a workhouse could be a home for children too. Brettongarcia Jun 2014 #12

Yes, the county poorhouse was revamped in the 1920s to specialize it struggle4progress Jun 2014 #17

Further remarks ... Brettongarcia Jun 2014 #21

The Tuam tank: another myth about evil Ireland struggle4progress Jun 2014 #8

Ireland has recently been good about exposing its bishops; several have recently resigned Brettongarcia Jun 2014 #13

That seems to be a different story, since Derry is not so near to Tuam struggle4progress Jun 2014 #18

But both are in greater "Ireland," the subject named in one of your posts Brettongarcia Jun 2014 #22

After 1921, Tuam and Derry were in entirely separate countries struggle4progress Jun 2014 #67

Why assume it was murder? YarnAddict Jun 2014 #79

These children were dumped in an unmarked grave. Warren Stupidity Jun 2014 #9

No, Warren, it's not unbelievable at all to see this posted. trotsky Jun 2014 #11

What's even worse than that: this post was expected... Act_of_Reparation Jun 2014 #14

They've used that one before, remember? trotsky Jun 2014 #15

Gotta love that circular logic Act_of_Reparation Jun 2014 #16

Well, that seems a�curious reaction struggle4progress Jun 2014 #19

your google splatter is not curious at all. Warren Stupidity Jun 2014 #20

Well, that settles it, then. Act_of_Reparation Jun 2014 #23

Yes, s4p seems to be wielding the skepticscott Jun 2014 #38

It seems your eagerness, to attribute to me things that I never said, struggle4progress Jun 2014 #44

everyone does it pokerfan Jun 2014 #55

Struggle4Progress raised a good point above. AtheistCrusader Jun 2014 #25

Waiting on all the facts doesn't help the "cause", you may be shunned or worse. Leontius Jun 2014 #43

Based on the initial reporting, I think it was a reasonable conclusion, but the facts have AtheistCrusader Jun 2014 #46

I think it may be unwise to draw many conclusions until the cbayer Jun 2014 #26

Thanks for posting this. Good information is hard to come by. Jim__ Jun 2014 #27

The apologetics in this thread are sickening. Goblinmonger Jun 2014 #28

What is actually sickening okasha Jun 2014 #29

You are absolutely right, okasha. trotsky Jun 2014 #31

Given that this was broken by The Mail, sensation at the expense of investigation is unsurprising. rug Jun 2014 #30

Where to look for burials in the Tuam Union Workhouse? struggle4progress Jun 2014 #33

Update on the Tuam Famine Burials struggle4progress Jun 2014 #34

... The workhouse was outside Tuam on the Dublin Road and during the famine there were nearly 2,800 struggle4progress Jun 2014 #35

Six County Galway Men Suffered Death Penalty struggle4progress Jun 2014 #36

Well at least the criminals got coffins and a formal burial. trotsky Jun 2014 #37

You may want to think twice before calling them "criminals" if you visit there: struggle4progress Jun 2014 #40

It is just sick that you would try and distract from the story here. trotsky Jun 2014 #49

What you call distracting from the story, I consider an effort to find the story struggle4progress Jun 2014 #50

Of course you would. trotsky Jun 2014 #52

Perhaps you will find this helpful struggle4progress Jun 2014 #53

Bless your heart! n/t trotsky Jun 2014 #54

See #115 downthread struggle4progress Jun 2014 #119

You make me sick to my stomach. n/t trotsky Jun 2014 #120

You raised the question of coffins in your post #37; I provided some info in #115 struggle4progress Jun 2014 #122

Link to contemporary news clippings about the home struggle4progress Jun 2014 #39

Some reporting on Tuam story 'mistaken' struggle4progress Jun 2014 #41

Neglect and death of 800 kids in Galway happened in plain sight struggle4progress Jun 2014 #42

you've google splattered your own thread. Warren Stupidity Jun 2014 #45

I've learned something by looking around: struggle4progress Jun 2014 #47

"... In the first half of the 20th century Ireland had one of the worst infant mortality rates struggle4progress Jun 2014 #48

And the rate in the home when run by the Bon Secours order was 30% to 50% intaglio Jun 2014 #129

If one uses the following website to convert pounds sterling to US dollars struggle4progress Jun 2014 #130

Let's take your apologist crap and destroy it intaglio Jun 2014 #131

The Tuam home was not a religious institution: it was a county institution, struggle4progress Jun 2014 #132

Oh, so the participation of the Bon Secours order was secular? intaglio Jun 2014 #133

Regarding maternal death rates at the Tuam home: struggle4progress Jun 2014 #134

That's why I used the average intaglio Jun 2014 #136

The figures given in the news report for 1932 -- 135 children and 24 mothers -- struggle4progress Jun 2014 #135

As I pointed out and you have ignored intaglio Jun 2014 #137

It is certainly possible that the vast majority of mothers were able to leave, but struggle4progress Jun 2014 #139

I doubt your account of Catholic teaching in Ireland regarding the burial struggle4progress Jun 2014 #138

... The Irish Catholic Bishops Conference ... In a statement .. said: struggle4progress Jun 2014 #56

Burial records pose challenge for inquiry into mother-and-baby homes struggle4progress Jun 2014 #57

And the Gish Gallop just rolls on and on and on... n/t trotsky Jun 2014 #58

More like a Goolgle Gallop. cleanhippie Jun 2014 #59

Wow, way to defend another atrocity in a long long list of seemingly indefensible atrocities. beam me up scottie Jun 2014 #60

? struggle4progress Jun 2014 #61

I'm unable watch videos so you'll have to use your big boy words if you wish to communicate. beam me up scottie Jun 2014 #62

bmus!!! trotsky Jun 2014 #63

Hi :) beam me up scottie Jun 2014 #64

Well as you can see, some of the names may change, some may not, trotsky Jun 2014 #65

I see you've developed quite a tolerance. beam me up scottie Jun 2014 #66

Here�s the letter giving state approval of Tuam mother and baby home struggle4progress Jun 2014 #68

A 37pp list with name, DOD, age, and COD can be downloaded struggle4progress Jun 2014 #69

Number of deaths by year struggle4progress Jun 2014 #70

Number of deaths by year, excepting measles, pertussis, influenza, and tuberculosis struggle4progress Jun 2014 #92

Deaths with premature birth listed among causes of death struggle4progress Jun 2014 #94

Inquests were held into these two deaths: struggle4progress Jun 2014 #71

Marasmus is noted in these 18 cases: struggle4progress Jun 2014 #72

Your noble and tireless efforts to excuse any possible role the teachings of the RCC played trotsky Jun 2014 #73

Deaths with measles listed as cause of death, or among other causes, by year struggle4progress Jun 2014 #74

What do you think of the church's official canon law... trotsky Jun 2014 #75

I'm not aware of any relation that might have to measles struggle4progress Jun 2014 #86

I am. trotsky Jun 2014 #87

Deaths with pertussis or whooping cough listed as cause of death, or among other causes, by year struggle4progress Jun 2014 #76

"To have death rates of 30%-50% in mother-and-baby homes in Tuam, Cork, and Westmeath..." trotsky Jun 2014 #77

If you have information on the number of residents at Tuam each year, then struggle4progress Jun 2014 #88

"To have death rates of 30%-50% in mother-and-baby homes in Tuam, Cork, and Westmeath..." trotsky Jun 2014 #90

18 children died of hunger at Tuam mother and baby home trotsky Jun 2014 #78

Google Gallop ought to be a sport. rug Jun 2014 #80

These cases are enumerated in my #72 upthread: struggle4progress Jun 2014 #82

Yes - marasmus = severe malnutrition. trotsky Jun 2014 #83

Deaths with influenza listed as cause of death, or among other causes, by year struggle4progress Jun 2014 #81

Hundreds attend vigil to remember Tuam babies trotsky Jun 2014 #84

The challenger is making a move on the outside. rug Jun 2014 #91

Deaths with tuberculosis listed as cause of death, or among other causes, by year struggle4progress Jun 2014 #85

Mother and baby home horror: "There was a secret room of doomed babies who never grew up" trotsky Jun 2014 #89

Beats horse with The Mirror, loses two furlongs. rug Jun 2014 #93

Overview struggle4progress Jun 2014 #95

Thanks for posting the information goldent Jun 2014 #101

It might be worthwhile learning why struggle4progress Jun 2014 #103

Yes, brilliant and factual. LOL trotsky Jun 2014 #105

So this is all OK with the theists here? Goblinmonger Jun 2014 #96

What do you have against information? Have you read the links? rug Jun 2014 #97

Is what OK? struggle4progress Jun 2014 #98

He asks, feigning obtuseness. Goblinmonger Jun 2014 #99

There doesn't seem to be any evidence that 800 dead babies are in a septic tank struggle4progress Jun 2014 #100

So that they were buried in an unmarked mass grave is ok as long as it's not a septic tank? beam me up scottie Jun 2014 #102

I am drawn again to the comparison with the presidential election of 2004. trotsky Jun 2014 #104

What happened to those babies before they were buried? beam me up scottie Jun 2014 #106

And why the much higher death rates at these religious "homes" for unwed mothers? trotsky Jun 2014 #107

If marking unmarked Irish graves is your thing, knock yourself out struggle4progress Jun 2014 #109

Sickening indeed. trotsky Jun 2014 #108

And he limps through the backfield staring wanly at the finish line. rug Jun 2014 #110

This atheist thinks that S4Ps information helps to clarify the issue. Jim__ Jun 2014 #111

Of course they can. okasha Jun 2014 #112

Your vicious and baseless attacks are disgusting, okasha. trotsky Jun 2014 #113

Yes, by all means, let's get that full airing of the facts. trotsky Jun 2014 #114

Contract for coffins struggle4progress Jun 2014 #115

A solicitation for a contract proves absolutely nothing. trotsky Jun 2014 #121

No, I don't know how the remains were handled: #118 downthread describes struggle4progress Jun 2014 #123

The Galway Horror Part II struggle4progress Jun 2014 #116

Casting a fresh eye on the Tuam controversy struggle4progress Jun 2014 #117

Tuam: New understanding struggle4progress Jun 2014 #118

Archaeology, the Tuam Workhouse & St. Mary's Mother & Baby Home struggle4progress Jun 2014 #124

Associated Press Apologizes for Its Coverage of the Irish Orphanage Story struggle4progress Jun 2014 #125

+1 rug Jun 2014 #126

Good for AP. okasha Jun 2014 #128

Extent of child deaths in Dublin home revealed struggle4progress Jun 2014 #127