Religion

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)

237. Only you or a member of your clan

Sun Jul 13, 2014, 12:30 PM

Jul 2014

Could say the statement "If you really want to raise the tone of civility around here, quit with smears and address those who want to communicate with you" is "hardly talking about tone" with a straight face. Intellectual dishonesty and hypocrisy must be contagious around your dinner table.

And if you're going back to applying disparaging nicknames, Tacky...be my guest. That game can be played too. Or you could try to inject something other than your usual content-free snark in your next post. Not holding my breath, though.

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Carl Sagan denied being an atheist. So what did he believe? [Part 1] [View all] cbayer Jul 2014 OP

So Carl Sagan didn't believe in God yet denied he was an atheist. Jim__ Jul 2014 #1

Wouldn't you just love to see that debate? cbayer Jul 2014 #2

I'd take on Sagan or NDT about the meaning of the word. Goblinmonger Jul 2014 #10

I think you would do great in a debate. hrmjustin Jul 2014 #17

Thanks, boss Goblinmonger Jul 2014 #33

How are you at astronomy? rug Jul 2014 #141

Yeah realized that after I posted Goblinmonger Jul 2014 #148

The fault, dear Goblinmonger, is not in our stars, rug Jul 2014 #150

I smiled at the John Green reference Goblinmonger Jul 2014 #190

You must have some powerful degrees Goblin! Nitram Jul 2014 #49

I was responding to cbayer's desire to see a debate. Goblinmonger Jul 2014 #66

So why mention your degrees? Nitram Jul 2014 #79

Sagan is an scientist and has degrees in sciency things. Goblinmonger Jul 2014 #84

This message was self-deleted by its author Starboard Tack Jul 2014 #157

So was this supposed to be one of those intelligent and civil contributions skepticscott Jul 2014 #158

"Sagan is an scientist and has degrees in sciency things" Starboard Tack Jul 2014 #160

I found that edhopper Jul 2014 #182

Thank you. That was the intent. Goblinmonger Jul 2014 #188

When they are reduced to making fun of edhopper Jul 2014 #191

And to accusing people skepticscott Jul 2014 #199

By Gob, it was clear indeed. Starboard Tack Jul 2014 #233

Don't ever talk to me about tone in here again. Goblinmonger Jul 2014 #189

The devil made you do it. okasha Jul 2014 #221

what the fuck are you talking about? Goblinmonger Jul 2014 #225

I don't think I have ever talked about "tone" Starboard Tack Jul 2014 #234

So you never said this? skepticscott Jul 2014 #235

Giving you a lesson in manners is hardly "talking" about tone Starboard Tack Jul 2014 #236

Only you or a member of your clan skepticscott Jul 2014 #237

Oh, he didn't have to search. rug Jul 2014 #252

Really? You think Sagan was an astrologer? Starboard Tack Jul 2014 #155

Maybe he had a Secret Life. okasha Jul 2014 #161

Maybe he was a "closet" atheist astrologer. Starboard Tack Jul 2014 #172

To take a step back from the monkey-shit-fight for a second AtheistCrusader Jul 2014 #70

Atheism is not the state of non-belief. Nitram Jul 2014 #77

You'd like that wouldn't you? AtheistCrusader Jul 2014 #82

Ah, the last refuge of a scoundrel. Nitram Jul 2014 #85

To me, the last refuge of a scoundrel is to sieze upon a detail like that and completely ignore AtheistCrusader Jul 2014 #92

Sorry Crusader Nitram Jul 2014 #99

YOU'RE RIGHT. AtheistCrusader Jul 2014 #102

Agnostic is not Atheist Cayenne Jul 2014 #226

Please stop telling atheists skepticscott Jul 2014 #242

Claiming that your statements are logical and your opponents are "spin." AlbertCat Jul 2014 #223

That is just no true Goblinmonger Jul 2014 #86

Atheism is not a statement of belief of any kind. phil89 Jul 2014 #159

Why would you think that anyone wants you to believe? cbayer Jul 2014 #171

Extraordinary claims require edhopper Jul 2014 #186

They would require extraordinary evidence if one was claiming they could prove it. cbayer Jul 2014 #230

Nothing juenile about comparing god belief with santa. phil89 Jul 2014 #240

Can you provide evidence that they are both made up? cbayer Jul 2014 #241

But that's not how it works. trotsky Jul 2014 #247

Oh, not true skepticscott Jul 2014 #248

You don't believe. That's cool. AlbertCat Jul 2014 #224

Say what? I think it's perfectly cool. cbayer Jul 2014 #229

I think they want me to believe so I won't burn in hell phil89 Jul 2014 #239

Well for those that tell you that they want you to believe, I think it makes sense to cbayer Jul 2014 #243

Strictly speaking, you don't get to define them... cbayer Jul 2014 #96

Tyson has already settled this, in a video I have repeatedly supplied you with, and you have not AtheistCrusader Jul 2014 #100

I watched that video way before you posted it and I don't think it's settled in the same cbayer Jul 2014 #137

Why would you love to see that? skepticscott Jul 2014 #108

"This is such a silly debate" trotsky Jul 2014 #121

Who could blame him? trotsky Jul 2014 #3

'the usual suspects' - such a classy way to state your argument. Warren Stupidity Jul 2014 #4

Or... LostOne4Ever Jul 2014 #5

Jim, I guess you are not familiar with the term "agnostic." Nitram Jul 2014 #6

A person can be both an atheist LostOne4Ever Jul 2014 #7

I guess you need further education on the meaning of "atheist" skepticscott Jul 2014 #9

Yes, I know several. Nitram Jul 2014 #12

For your consideration Goblinmonger Jul 2014 #13

Your Venn diagram is simplistic... Nitram Jul 2014 #16

Um, no, it isn't. That venn diagram is 100% accurate, and you have no idea what gnostic/agnostic AtheistCrusader Jul 2014 #20

AtheistCrusader Nitram Jul 2014 #26

I don't need to 'hit the books', there's a simple synopsis of the history of these words here: AtheistCrusader Jul 2014 #47

"Literally no idea what you are talking about." cleanhippie Jul 2014 #44

Trolling? Nitram Jul 2014 #52

Sure, if you're just going to kep making up words as you go, it can mean anything! AtheistCrusader Jul 2014 #57

No, it is your definition that is a contradiction. LostOne4Ever Jul 2014 #75

Please point them out skepticscott Jul 2014 #23

Scott, I am sticking to the accepted meanings of English words Nitram Jul 2014 #27

In other words, you can't back up your horseshit claim skepticscott Jul 2014 #110

Actually that is not true Joe Turner Jul 2014 #255

+1 rug Jul 2014 #256

Actually, I'm quite familiar with it. Jim__ Jul 2014 #11

No no no no no LostOne4Ever Jul 2014 #22

Here is what the Urban Dictionary has to say. Jim__ Jul 2014 #24

Urban dictionary is hardly an authorative source LostOne4Ever Jul 2014 #36

Well, based on your claim, I also get a say in the definition. Jim__ Jul 2014 #38

Multiple? LostOne4Ever Jul 2014 #42

Yes multiple. Jim__ Jul 2014 #51

I hope they have more repute than the ones you listed so far LostOne4Ever Jul 2014 #54

Two references in agreement with Sagan's use are sufficient to establish the point. Jim__ Jul 2014 #59

And the OED, as well as the statements of AA and FFRF is sufficient to refute that point. (nt) LostOne4Ever Jul 2014 #61

It's usage. Two dictionaries and Sagan's explicit usage confirm that it's a common use. Jim__ Jul 2014 #64

This is a debate in which you are entirely correct but will never win. cbayer Jul 2014 #71

I know. Thanks. Jim__ Jul 2014 #88

No. LostOne4Ever Jul 2014 #80

Are AA and FFRF the authoritative voices of atheists? rug Jul 2014 #147

They represent thousands upon thousands (maybe even millions) of atheists LostOne4Ever Jul 2014 #175

Are there any other representatives of millions of atheists? rug Jul 2014 #176

Well there are the libertarian atheists LostOne4Ever Jul 2014 #179

Merriam Webster okasha Jul 2014 #81

It is derivative upon his dictionary LostOne4Ever Jul 2014 #89

Who is "his"? okasha Jul 2014 #95

Noah Webster LostOne4Ever Jul 2014 #106

You have strong feelings about this. TM99 Jul 2014 #116

Yes I have strong feelings about this. LostOne4Ever Jul 2014 #127

How to reply to this? TM99 Jul 2014 #138

I'll respond tomorrow LostOne4Ever Jul 2014 #144

Absolutely. TM99 Jul 2014 #170

Back LostOne4Ever Jul 2014 #178

I am sorry, I have a busy weekend with a conference. TM99 Jul 2014 #203

No problem take your time (nt) LostOne4Ever Jul 2014 #206

Back now as well. TM99 Jul 2014 #270

That is absolutely fine with me LostOne4Ever Jul 2014 #283

It isn't always easy to disagree TM99 Jul 2014 #284

Of course you're right about modern dictionaries being descriptive. Jim__ Jul 2014 #94

Exactly. okasha Jul 2014 #98

Soooo LostOne4Ever Jul 2014 #113

No. There are 2 meanings in common usage. Jim__ Jul 2014 #118

Except the OP jumped the shark with the subject line itself. AtheistCrusader Jul 2014 #119

The article is explicit about what Sagan meant by "not being an atheist." Jim__ Jul 2014 #125

It's also clear what he meant about being an atheist. trotsky Jul 2014 #126

I am fine with there being more than one usuage. LostOne4Ever Jul 2014 #184

I've read your posts throughout this thread, okasha Jul 2014 #164

Addendum: I'm puzzled okasha Jul 2014 #166

Second post. okasha Jul 2014 #169

That's probably the most interesting point on the thread for me Goblinmonger Jul 2014 #254

Compiling my responses LostOne4Ever Jul 2014 #185

Post removed Post removed Jul 2014 #73

I think he understands that. cbayer Jul 2014 #46

Or one could put the shoe on the other foot... trotsky Jul 2014 #48

It is NOT a modifier. It speaks to a different question entirely. AtheistCrusader Jul 2014 #50

Lol, same circular argument, different day. cbayer Jul 2014 #69

Someone's going to lose, all right. AtheistCrusader Jul 2014 #72

Woohoo!!!! cbayer Jul 2014 #90

I don't like that one, at all MannyGoldstein Jul 2014 #183

Lol. I did not really notice the score until you just said this. cbayer Jul 2014 #227

IIRC, it was *the* game in 2011 where the Sox imploded MannyGoldstein Jul 2014 #228

I have seen far too many games like those, but I have also seen cbayer Jul 2014 #231

So when people use "literally" wrong Goblinmonger Jul 2014 #8

Agnostic and gnostic are two very different things. Nitram Jul 2014 #14

You are confusing the religious viewpoint with the word it is based on. Goblinmonger Jul 2014 #15

I am aware of the meaning of the root language involved. Nitram Jul 2014 #18

Who the fuck are you to presume anyone was only speaking about Christianity? AtheistCrusader Jul 2014 #21

When someone defineds the word agnosticism based only on the Greek roots Nitram Jul 2014 #25

Wrong. AtheistCrusader Jul 2014 #55

So are you arguing that the English word is devoid of any draw from another language? Goblinmonger Jul 2014 #30

Wrong Monger Nitram Jul 2014 #45

I have no idea what that sentence is getting at. Goblinmonger Jul 2014 #68

OOps Nitram Jul 2014 #76

Knowledge and belief aren't the same thing Act_of_Reparation Jul 2014 #31

Yes, I believe that people have the ability to use "literally" however they want. Jim__ Jul 2014 #19

The definition of Atheist From the Oxford English online dictionary LostOne4Ever Jul 2014 #28

Did you miss this under disbelief: mental rejection of something as untrue? Jim__ Jul 2014 #34

Untrue LostOne4Ever Jul 2014 #37

Yes, I disbelieve you. I believe you are not heading west. Jim__ Jul 2014 #53

Thus a lack of belief LostOne4Ever Jul 2014 #56

No. Thus a positive belief that you are not heading west. Jim__ Jul 2014 #60

Again LostOne4Ever Jul 2014 #62

Once more and that's it. Jim__ Jul 2014 #114

You ignored the point again LostOne4Ever Jul 2014 #117

Try refuting the logical statements in post #114. Jim__ Jul 2014 #120

Why? LostOne4Ever Jul 2014 #129

It eliminates the ambiguity of natural language. Jim__ Jul 2014 #130

Here goes LostOne4Ever Jul 2014 #181

Try phrasing the statements without using the weasel word "believe" skepticscott Jul 2014 #136

From post #119 down, this subthread is about "belief" and "disbelief." Jim__ Jul 2014 #139

I can't help that an inappropriate word was used up to now skepticscott Jul 2014 #151

Technically... trotsky Jul 2014 #131

Jim, youre right. Nitram Jul 2014 #29

Those two words deal with two different things. Goblinmonger Jul 2014 #32

Thanks Nitram. Welcome to the Religion Forum. Jim__ Jul 2014 #35

When people are trying to misrepresent an entire group LostOne4Ever Jul 2014 #39

Yeah, they do. trotsky Jul 2014 #40

I'm not surprised. Nitram Jul 2014 #43

Can you point to someone here using 'agnosticism' as the same as atheism? AtheistCrusader Jul 2014 #65

Nice strawman you built Goblinmonger Jul 2014 #67

Atheism and agnosticism are indeed mutually exclusive Nitram Jul 2014 #78

Fucking. Face. Palm. AtheistCrusader Jul 2014 #83

there you go again with that irreffutable logic of yours Nitram Jul 2014 #91

How does that even make sense? Goblinmonger Jul 2014 #87

Monger, belief is a feeling of being sure that someone or something exists or that something is true Nitram Jul 2014 #93

Who the fuck is Miriam-Webster? AtheistCrusader Jul 2014 #97

Merriam-Webster Nitram Jul 2014 #103

Spelling? Please, you can't even get whole WORDS right. AtheistCrusader Jul 2014 #104

So you are saying that if someone says they belief in god Goblinmonger Jul 2014 #101

Ok Nitram Jul 2014 #105

Except several of us have pointed out groups that are theists that are also agnostic. AtheistCrusader Jul 2014 #107

Not what I'm saying Goblinmonger Jul 2014 #111

Quick, you better delete this wiki page for being a contradiction in terms! AtheistCrusader Jul 2014 #112

which would be a good time to bring up Warren Stupidity Jul 2014 #153

Can't speak for the others, but I'm a Jewish atheist, and not religious. immoderate Jul 2014 #163

I think that would make you a secular/cultural jew. There are religious jewish atheists. Warren Stupidity Jul 2014 #167

You flatter me. immoderate Jul 2014 #168

Atheism is non-belief, not necessarily a positive 'firm belief'. AtheistCrusader Jul 2014 #63

Congratulations, you are an agnostic, Agnostic Crusader! Nitram Jul 2014 #122

I'm an agnostic atheist. AtheistCrusader Jul 2014 #123

I'm an atheist, and I have no firm beliefs. immoderate Jul 2014 #165

Kurt is your avie, didnt know we could have him as an avie... randys1 Jul 2014 #152

He's still available as an avatar - under people. Jim__ Jul 2014 #154

Boy, did you ever predict that one. rug Jul 2014 #258

Who knew? Jim__ Jul 2014 #264

Well then WovenGems Jul 2014 #259

He believed in what he believed in, when he thought about it in private. haele Jul 2014 #41

"he thought it should be only his concern what he believed in" cbayer Jul 2014 #74

Sagan was a scientist TheSarcastinator Jul 2014 #58

True, and anyone who thinks this TM99 Jul 2014 #109

Oh, you're so right skepticscott Jul 2014 #115

Makes sense to me. pinto Jul 2014 #124

Neil Degrasse Tyson made an exceptional point in Cosmos. Maedhros Jul 2014 #133

Neither science nor religion can achieve total understanding of the universe, imo. pinto Jul 2014 #142

Why did you post this? LostOne4Ever Jul 2014 #128

Best post of the thread. n/t trotsky Jul 2014 #132

She's posted just above skepticscott Jul 2014 #134

Of course you don't cbayer Jul 2014 #135

You have no answer, so you go for the personal attack. trotsky Jul 2014 #140

Thanks for the response LostOne4Ever Jul 2014 #143

You were at one point so able to relate to others across a wide range. cbayer Jul 2014 #145

Really? A parting shot like that? trotsky Jul 2014 #146

Thank you! LostOne4Ever Jul 2014 #187

This thread needs a soundtrack. rug Jul 2014 #149

Carl Sagan was wrong on his definition... MellowDem Jul 2014 #156

Yes, I am certain Carl Sagan was wrong and TM99 Jul 2014 #173

And which of those things would preclude him from being wrong? skepticscott Jul 2014 #174

Teaching critical thinking, for one thing. rug Jul 2014 #180

From the same people edhopper Jul 2014 #192

Yes, I wonder how our friend skepticscott Jul 2014 #195

So you are fine with his definition of atheist? Goblinmonger Jul 2014 #207

How many logical fallacies can you fit in one response? MellowDem Jul 2014 #288

There are several meanings of the words atheism and agnosticism that have been mentioned TM99 Jul 2014 #291

Look up appeal to authority... MellowDem Jul 2014 #293

You really don't know what you are talking about. TM99 Jul 2014 #295

Nope. Act_of_Reparation Jul 2014 #298

Only the West has concepts of atheism? MellowDem Jul 2014 #299

These are nonsensical claims. Act_of_Reparation Jul 2014 #294

Sounds like he just didn't know and he didn't like labels. hrmjustin Jul 2014 #162

I think he dismissed the label to make a point about edhopper Jul 2014 #193

Went downhill? skepticscott Jul 2014 #197

I have no doubt you will argue your point well. hrmjustin Jul 2014 #198

I have no doubt you'll be sitting by your computer all afternoon skepticscott Jul 2014 #200

If you don't want to hear me then don't respond to me. hrmjustin Jul 2014 #205

But they he wouldn't be able to attack you with actively aggressive insults. rug Jul 2014 #209

He seems angry at the fact I answered him in seconds. hrmjustin Jul 2014 #216

You hardly had time to soak in the profundity of his comment. rug Jul 2014 #218

I feel so ashamed! hrmjustin Jul 2014 #219

Tsk. "No hope for you, though." rug Jul 2014 #220

So why did you say you didn't read this thread? skepticscott Jul 2014 #260

I read the op and a few of the early responses. I am sorry I was not clear on that. hrmjustin Jul 2014 #261

I thought you weren't interested in this thread skepticscott Jul 2014 #262

Ok you want to make this personal. I don't. I am asking you and no I don't want to read over 200 hrmjustin Jul 2014 #263

You've already been answered in posts directed at you skepticscott Jul 2014 #265

Another poster was kind enough to answer me in the other thread. hrmjustin Jul 2014 #266

I think that if Carl Sagan did not consider himself an atheist that would have been CBGLuthier Jul 2014 #177

He was an atheist edhopper Jul 2014 #194

The fact that he didn't consider himself one skepticscott Jul 2014 #196

Well bigot is edhopper Jul 2014 #201

Well, Sagan may have wished skepticscott Jul 2014 #208

yes, he was an atheist edhopper Jul 2014 #211

I don't believe in god(s)...including Dr. Sagan... Tikki Jul 2014 #202

I take issue with this statement - " An atheist is someone who has compelling evidence that there is djean111 Jul 2014 #204

I wonder if that is out of context edhopper Jul 2014 #212

It does seem like an oddly illogical statement to me - neither "side" has proof of any kind, djean111 Jul 2014 #213

Well I disagree with his definition of atheist edhopper Jul 2014 #214

That's what I am saying - his definition of "atheist" is incorrect. djean111 Jul 2014 #215

I agree that his definition in incorrect edhopper Jul 2014 #217

I can't wait for Part 2. rug Jul 2014 #210

I know! He might discuss his predilection for corn flake fried chicken. cbayer Jul 2014 #274

I hope the interview took place in an Olive Garden. rug Jul 2014 #276

Only if there were pit bulls with open carry breasfeeding kittens. cbayer Jul 2014 #282

Carl Sagan denied being an atheist. AlbertCat Jul 2014 #222

Who is the you that you are addressing here? cbayer Jul 2014 #232

Neil deGrasse Tyson says the same thing. So does Richard Dawkins when pressed. Gore1FL Jul 2014 #238

I think we are in need of a new nomenclature. cbayer Jul 2014 #244

I think belief, don't know and non-belief are all parts of a connected spectrum. pinto Jul 2014 #245

There has got to be better solution, right? cbayer Jul 2014 #246

It definitely is divisive. trotsky Jul 2014 #249

The line I think we can all support is separation of church & state. I strongly support that. pinto Jul 2014 #250

I'm with you, pinto, and remain confused at times as to why this seems such a cbayer Jul 2014 #251

Post removed Post removed Jul 2014 #253

For someone who posts drivel constantly rug Jul 2014 #257

Not sure why you'd post something like this EvolveOrConvolve Jul 2014 #267

A Washington Post profile of Carl Sagan' beliefs or nonbeliefs is perfectly apt for this Group. rug Jul 2014 #268

I had no idea that an article about Csrl Sagan's religious views would stir up a shit storm. cbayer Jul 2014 #269

"psychotic person who had a religious delusion and must, therefore, represent all of religion" trotsky Jul 2014 #271

Your hurt because she posted this op? why? hrmjustin Jul 2014 #272

It disrupts his narrarive. rug Jul 2014 #273

Do tell, then, why those articles are posted. rug Jul 2014 #275

I do think that believing one can ascertain a dead (or alive) person's thoughts and beliefs is djean111 Jul 2014 #277

Not if you use their recorded words. rug Jul 2014 #278

Fine with me! djean111 Jul 2014 #279

I like biographies. rug Jul 2014 #280

Ha! I like verbatim dialogue a lot more than reading what the biographer decides the person was djean111 Jul 2014 #281

I think rug means verbatim dialogue like this: okasha Jul 2014 #290

Ah! Yes, imagining what they said as if it was actually verbatim. djean111 Jul 2014 #292

reply #2 cbayer chuckles about how badly this thread of hers is going to go. Warren Stupidity Jul 2014 #285

Pure innocence, y'all! trotsky Jul 2014 #286

I wouldn't post this OP Dorian Gray Jul 2014 #296

Regarding the delusion threads, trotsky Jul 2014 #297

I'm in a hurry Dorian Gray Jul 2014 #300

He believed, incorrectly, gcomeau Jul 2014 #287

Further OP ideas for people that don't understand atheism... MellowDem Jul 2014 #289