Religion

Brettongarcia

(2,262 posts)

116. Is it safe to abandon all reason? Even in Art? In Religion? God says, don't do it.

Wed Jul 30, 2014, 04:33 AM

Jul 2014

1) As a sometimes Art historian and literary critic, I believe that elements of art and literature can be discovered to have some reason, logic, in them. Art is not utterly illogical. And it is useful- and critical - to find the rational and historical underpinnings.

2) To suddenly declare that a given area of human endeavor to be a reason-free zone, can be dangerous and even fatal. Abandoning your reason in any context, can make you mindless and criminally insane.

3) Furthermore, your description of religion as non-scientific is simply incorrect. My own professional studies are dedicated to showing that surprisingly, even the Bible itself supports "science," by name and by full description. See for example, Dan. 1.4-15, King James Edition specifically. Also 1 Kings 18.20-40.

So in sum? Your assertion that religion is entirely different from science is simply, factually, biblically wrong.

Furthermore, deciding to simply abandon your Reason, even for a moment in just one sphere or two - say, Religion - turns out to be insanity. Even as it turns out, criminal insanity. As we showed on this blog a few months ago; in our countless earlier examples of deaths, murders, committed by very, very anti-rational religious folks.

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Question about lying. [View all] DetlefK Jul 2014 OP

Plenty of info on this. AtheistCrusader Jul 2014 #1

Just to add a more recent quote..... defacto7 Jul 2014 #101

So you are asking if anyone knows edhopper Jul 2014 #2

A lie is a lie no matter what human institution say about it. hrmjustin Jul 2014 #3

What about telling children the stories of Adam and Eve edhopper Jul 2014 #6

No. Either they believe it or it is an allegory and it is taught as such. hrmjustin Jul 2014 #7

I disagree - many churches will tell children the story of Noah without saying "but this isn't true" muriel_volestrangler Jul 2014 #37

If Noah is just story then I would say it fits the OT version of God as being vengeful and needs to hrmjustin Jul 2014 #40

That's not the kind of view that was ever brought up as a possibility when I was young muriel_volestrangler Jul 2014 #48

Well if you actually read the OT and NT it is really hard to miss the different views on God. hrmjustin Jul 2014 #50

Yes, but that's the point with how the Bible is presented to children muriel_volestrangler Jul 2014 #59

It depends on the church and teachers but I see your point. hrmjustin Jul 2014 #62

Telling children stories is not the same thing as lying, imo. cbayer Jul 2014 #8

So if you don't do the latter you are a liar? Warren Stupidity Jul 2014 #41

In my opinion, telling children false tales, lies, is lying. Brettongarcia Jul 2014 #84

Kind of hard to have a discussion with somebody who has told Warren Stupidity Jul 2014 #4

He does not want you barging into the conversation with your irrelevancies Fortinbras Armstrong Jul 2014 #11

Ah yes the people having conversations with Warren Stupidity Jul 2014 #15

Rather rude on the OPs part... rexcat Jul 2014 #16

Maybe you should start a thread in A&A to complain about it. rug Jul 2014 #25

he did. And he is wrong about interfaith. hrmjustin Jul 2014 #44

Post removed Post removed Jul 2014 #45

Classy as always. hrmjustin Jul 2014 #47

Don't you ever get bored with these blank posts, or is it enough of an achievement mr blur Jul 2014 #63

one could ask you the same question. hrmjustin Jul 2014 #64

Allow me. rug Jul 2014 #68

Thank you my friend. hrmjustin Jul 2014 #69

Like most human events, it's more a matter of integrity than innocence. rug Jul 2014 #71

Don't you ever get bored with these blank posts? rug Jul 2014 #67

Jury results for #45 Lancero Jul 2014 #73

Thanks for posting. rug Jul 2014 #74

You and your clique okasha Jul 2014 #90

my alert? Warren Stupidity Jul 2014 #102

lol our team went down in flames. hrmjustin Jul 2014 #103

I'll give you credit for being the only one on your side to object to the overt rudeness. Warren Stupidity Jul 2014 #104

Gee, whose trademark is this? rug Jul 2014 #105

I try. I fail at times but I try. hrmjustin Jul 2014 #106

Is there really a commandment against lying? cbayer Jul 2014 #5

"Satan is the father of lies." God hates "deceit." Telling people untruths confuses their minds. Brettongarcia Jul 2014 #83

"Bearing false witness" okasha Jul 2014 #92

I did not even mention or include "bearing false witness." Brettongarcia Jul 2014 #94

I like your description of this. The intent to do harm is also an important factor. cbayer Jul 2014 #110

I extremely dislike this. You ladies are justifying lies Brettongarcia Jul 2014 #114

Women especially value "white lies"? And those lies are usually much blacker than women realize? cbayer Jul 2014 #115

Manifestly, you two ladies just put your heads together, and defended lies. A case in point Brettongarcia Jul 2014 #117

Shut up yourself. But thanks for the mention, if not the snark. (nt) mr blur Jul 2014 #9

The shut up coomment is not helpful and rude. hrmjustin Jul 2014 #10

Actually, the "shut up" comment is not rude and quite helpful Fortinbras Armstrong Jul 2014 #13

it was quite helpful, in ways you could not possibly imagine at the time you wrote that. Warren Stupidity Jul 2014 #34

A lie is not a lie okasha Jul 2014 #12

You know what would have worked better? Attrition. AtheistCrusader Jul 2014 #19

Realistically, the 'someone about to die' would have been you, and the people you're helping muriel_volestrangler Jul 2014 #42

False. German civilians were armed, in fact. AtheistCrusader Jul 2014 #46

No, gun ownership is not, and was not, common in European countries muriel_volestrangler Jul 2014 #57

A fair amount of time passed between the relaxation of those laws, and the onset of war. AtheistCrusader Jul 2014 #65

Pretty strictly controlled muriel_volestrangler Jul 2014 #66

Kant would be disappointed. Warren Stupidity Jul 2014 #49

The Catholic church actually uses this argument Brettongarcia Jul 2014 #78

Augustine of Hippo was mentioned above, so I shall write a bit more on him Fortinbras Armstrong Jul 2014 #14

So if you take words, put quotation marks around them, and claim that's what someone else said, trotsky Jul 2014 #17

I believe that your intention is to resurrect the slander some of you atheists spouted Fortinbras Armstrong Jul 2014 #20

How about you either plagarized or are Garry Wills? Warren Stupidity Jul 2014 #22

OK, that's a fair cop Fortinbras Armstrong Jul 2014 #23

Ironic. Perhaps the most fabulous case of unintentional irony I've ever seen on DU. Warren Stupidity Jul 2014 #24

I was being wholly un-ironical Fortinbras Armstrong Jul 2014 #30

That is the unintentional part of it. Warren Stupidity Jul 2014 #31

You didn't just plagiarize, you lied. trotsky Jul 2014 #32

Sometimes I think god is on OUR side. Warren Stupidity Jul 2014 #35

When his followers act like this, you kinda have to wonder. n/t trotsky Jul 2014 #56

Effin A trotsky Jul 2014 #27

Somehow this is all good. Warren Stupidity Jul 2014 #28

Why is always the super pious who are super dishonest? Fix The Stupid Jul 2014 #39

Well... trotsky Jul 2014 #58

Very good. Now link to your post of what you CLAIMED he said. trotsky Jul 2014 #26

You're the one trying to resurrect it. Fortinbras Armstrong Jul 2014 #38

Are you british by any chance? Warren Stupidity Jul 2014 #51

In other words, you would slink away Fortinbras Armstrong Jul 2014 #53

yes. I would admit being an asshat and then disappear. Warren Stupidity Jul 2014 #54

Alright, dude, you asked for it. Here it is to expose your dishonesty for all to see. trotsky Jul 2014 #55

That right there is how it is done. Fix The Stupid Jul 2014 #61

+ 1000. skepticscott Jul 2014 #98

Thanks. DetlefK Jul 2014 #120

All lying is not the same libodem Jul 2014 #18

Many people say that religion itself is a "White" Lie;they tell you there is a god, to make you obey Brettongarcia Jul 2014 #77

I don't think kids need to be brainwashed libodem Jul 2014 #100

I agree. Just simply explain the logic of things to kids; don't tell them lies Brettongarcia Jul 2014 #108

Well, that's it then. I guess we're all going to hell. Starboard Tack Jul 2014 #21

So lying is no problem for you? Brettongarcia Jul 2014 #79

To be honest, nothing is a problem for me Starboard Tack Jul 2014 #82

So you are confessing to being a liar? Brettongarcia Jul 2014 #85

Confess? Moi? Je ne suis pas Catholique Starboard Tack Jul 2014 #88

Have you ever heard about the White Lie theory of religion? What do you think of it? Brettongarcia Jul 2014 #91

No! Well maybe. On second thoughts, No! Starboard Tack Jul 2014 #95

"In lies, truth" the Romans used to say Brettongarcia Jul 2014 #96

You see, you are quite bright, after all. Starboard Tack Jul 2014 #99

It hardly matters if none of us have absolute truth; we know some things that seem more certain Brettongarcia Jul 2014 #109

Why would you compare religion with science? Starboard Tack Jul 2014 #113

Is it safe to abandon all reason? Even in Art? In Religion? God says, don't do it. Brettongarcia Jul 2014 #116

I don't deal in absolutes like "Is it safe to abandon all reason?" Starboard Tack Jul 2014 #119

Logic is a major part of reason. Logic is necessary in science. Brettongarcia Jul 2014 #121

No, actually, it is not necessary to science. Here are 5 definitions of "reason" Starboard Tack Jul 2014 #123

I spent some time trying to remember if I'd ever heard a more indefensible thing from an adult Brettongarcia Jul 2014 #132

You don't get it do you? Starboard Tack Jul 2014 #134

To say there is "reason" in the universe, does not means that the universe reasons mentally; Brettongarcia Jul 2014 #136

The exception I am aware of is not from religion. Heard a couple of MBA students discussing when jwirr Jul 2014 #29

It's called "puffery." For puffing things up. Generally not considered QUITE a lie. But halfway Brettongarcia Jul 2014 #80

"Puffery"? MonsieurBrettonSenorGarcia Starboard Tack Jul 2014 #89

It is widely recognized on the Web that names here are "internet names," or nom de plumes. Brettongarcia Jul 2014 #93

Ah, not exactly a lie. Perhaps a little "puffery"? Starboard Tack Jul 2014 #97

My point exactly Brettongarcia Jul 2014 #112

Not "hopelessly subjective". Not at all. Starboard Tack Jul 2014 #118

Wrong. "Put me to the test" says God in Mal. 3.10. Examine prophets by their material "fruits" Brettongarcia Jul 2014 #122

When my children were about 6 and 7 years old. SummerSnow Jul 2014 #33

Was that a state secular school? muriel_volestrangler Jul 2014 #43

It was a public school.They tried to tell me that holiday activities SummerSnow Jul 2014 #52

Good for you, for making them see the true situation (nt) muriel_volestrangler Jul 2014 #60

"Divine deception." xfundy Jul 2014 #36

It's often also called the "White Lie" view of religion. Brettongarcia Jul 2014 #86

Jury results. FYI. rug Jul 2014 #70

thanks for posting the results. hrmjustin Jul 2014 #72

Most excellent. DetlefK Jul 2014 #124

It's a constant. Gore1FL Jul 2014 #75

Are you sure you weren't told to shut up about that? Warren Stupidity Jul 2014 #76

Interestingly though, the OP leaves open one extremely important topic: is religion a White Lie Brettongarcia Jul 2014 #81

Not exactly. I meant the bible itself contains the stories with all the rationale anyone needs. Gore1FL Jul 2014 #107

As I read it, the OP didn't want a simple, general condemnation of Religion; it wanted specifics Brettongarcia Jul 2014 #111

My point was is that adults don't have to "lie" to their children Gore1FL Jul 2014 #125

"The lie comes in giving the book authority in the first place." - that's the part you are supposed Warren Stupidity Jul 2014 #128

I'd appreciate not being used as a vehicle to attack the OP. n/t Gore1FL Jul 2014 #135

The scriptures can and are edhopper Jul 2014 #87

The "Lying for the Lord" thing, espoused by the Mormons (are Mitt's lips moving? Then he is lying), djean111 Jul 2014 #126

On the rudeness... DetlefK Jul 2014 #129

I am an atheist, and the "shut up" mostly just made me roll my eyes. djean111 Jul 2014 #130

"Belief does not affect reality" - and yet your second paragraph illustrates exactly why it does. Warren Stupidity Jul 2014 #133

What I meant was that believing in a god, or not, has no effect on whether there is a god. djean111 Jul 2014 #137

Well I'd even argue that point as I think gods are entirely a social construct. Warren Stupidity Jul 2014 #138

Many if not most atheists edhopper Jul 2014 #131

Romans 3:7 intaglio Jul 2014 #127

And? The Bible itself contains hundreds of warnings about "false" things in religion; even Christian Brettongarcia Jul 2014 #139

You asked about the Church intaglio Jul 2014 #140

So it rather seems at times. Still, looks like most of the Bible itself opposed lying. Brettongarcia Jul 2014 #141