Religion

Htom Sirveaux

(1,242 posts)

98. You're creating a false dichotomy between

Wed Jul 30, 2014, 03:06 PM

Jul 2014

dedication to religious doctrine/practice and change. A person who used to believe that God was opposed to gay marriage, and now believes that God supports gay marriage hasn't become less devout, less dedicated. Or if they have, how can you justify that without appealing to fundamentalism as the paradigm of religion?

What I'm saying doesn't fit into said false dichotomy, and that's the source of confusion. As to your questions:

1-2. No, because the fundamentalist part is (a) valuing something called "a biblical worldview" and (b) adhering to it by total agreement to a set of propositions that include some requirement of "literal" understanding of the Bible (in this case, at the very least in the literal reality of Satan). I agree with you that the listed propositions taken individually are not inherently fundamentalist.

3. No, I'm not equating "born again" with "fundamentalist". Fundamentalists are going to be "born again" but not all "born agains" are Fundamentalist.

4. See explanation for 1-2
-

Regarding the difference between our examples, you're not quite getting it. You added on a layer with your "worshiping god by feeding the poor", because the action was feeding the poor. With blasphemy, there is no additional layer. Blasphemy is a crime against religious beliefs, period. Now if I had said my example was "Executing someone for blasphemy" you'd definitely have a point, since a non-believer or a believer can execute someone. But I didn't say that - I said the act was judging someone to have committed blasphemy. A non-believer can't do that, because they have no god, no religious beliefs to offend.

With blasphemy, the action is "criminalizing offensive speech". Adding "about a religious topic" is just an additional layer that changes nothing.

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When religious people do bad things in the name of religion... [View all] Htom Sirveaux Jul 2014 OP

I don't like giving religion the respect many people do. upaloopa Jul 2014 #1

The article is not about whether or not you give a shit about religious beliefs or not. rug Jul 2014 #4

Blind belief in science is as stupid as blind belief in religion upaloopa Jul 2014 #11

Absolutely. rug Jul 2014 #12

Really? I find only one keeps the food in my fridge cold. AtheistCrusader Jul 2014 #24

Well you got something there but I am not sure what upaloopa Jul 2014 #26

You just equated a process that is used to detemine the nature of reality to a made up bit AtheistCrusader Jul 2014 #33

I got good grades in logic. upaloopa Jul 2014 #34

There have been studies on the efficacy of intercessory prayer. AtheistCrusader Jul 2014 #36

I believe in the power or law of attraction upaloopa Jul 2014 #38

It can't be documented because edhopper Jul 2014 #39

You say what you think and that is the paradigm you upaloopa Jul 2014 #40

Like, with magnets, or what? AtheistCrusader Jul 2014 #41

You need to read up on it. I don't want to try to explain upaloopa Jul 2014 #42

Sounds like the Dianetics book someone sent me when I graduated high school. AtheistCrusader Jul 2014 #43

Pure Oprah filtered edhopper Jul 2014 #44

You can also keep your opinions to yourself upaloopa Jul 2014 #45

I could, but I choose not to. edhopper Jul 2014 #46

It doesn't matter one twit to me what you upaloopa Jul 2014 #50

Probably not edhopper Jul 2014 #62

Here is what I think upaloopa Jul 2014 #64

Actually I am more enlightened than many others edhopper Jul 2014 #65

Fine I still don't give a shit what you think of me yourself or any other thing. upaloopa Jul 2014 #66

I guess your "secret" edhopper Jul 2014 #68

There are people all over the world who agree upaloopa Jul 2014 #70

I didn't think you were edhopper Jul 2014 #84

Post removed Post removed Jul 2014 #85

Hmmm? edhopper Jul 2014 #86

AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service Capt. Obvious Jul 2014 #87

For the record, edhopper Jul 2014 #88

He wants to thank you Capt. Obvious Jul 2014 #89

You did use your opinion to suggest I waste a bunch of my time. AtheistCrusader Jul 2014 #48

Those are your thoughts not mine. upaloopa Jul 2014 #51

Did you, or did you not suggest a book? AtheistCrusader Jul 2014 #52

You or someone said "like magnets" upaloopa Jul 2014 #58

No, but then I don't think I've seen anyone who has said that. trotsky Jul 2014 #2

Could you show us what you have in mind? Htom Sirveaux Jul 2014 #3

Here's my brief assessment: trotsky Jul 2014 #5

I don't think that's the same standard. Htom Sirveaux Jul 2014 #7

No, I assume the possibility in both. trotsky Jul 2014 #10

The level of specificity needs to be kept the same also. Htom Sirveaux Jul 2014 #13

Well that's something you aren't doing, you know. trotsky Jul 2014 #16

Ok, then change it to "Without religion, would people still give charity to the poor" Htom Sirveaux Jul 2014 #17

Please read the full article. trotsky Jul 2014 #18

Upon reading the full article... Htom Sirveaux Jul 2014 #19

You seem to be confused. trotsky Jul 2014 #21

Your reading eliminates the distinction she was trying to draw. Htom Sirveaux Jul 2014 #22

Yes, it's uniquely stubborn. trotsky Jul 2014 #23

As you say, the graph is between Born Agains v. Non-Born Agains Htom Sirveaux Jul 2014 #25

That certainly explains why your numbers aren't zero yet. trotsky Jul 2014 #27

If I haven't accomplished empirical falsification by critiquing Htom Sirveaux Jul 2014 #29

Eh? You just sabotaged your own graph by undermining the lone distinction it made. trotsky Jul 2014 #32

No, I didn't. Htom Sirveaux Jul 2014 #37

Yeah, you did. trotsky Jul 2014 #57

This is the difference: Htom Sirveaux Jul 2014 #79

There's religiosity, and "true religion." trotsky Jul 2014 #83

Take a look at the definition of "a Biblical worldview" Htom Sirveaux Jul 2014 #90

A fundamentalist view? trotsky Jul 2014 #91

But to get the "Biblical Worldview" you must have them all Htom Sirveaux Jul 2014 #92

Sounds like a lot of what you wrote is just your personal opinion. trotsky Jul 2014 #93

Whether what I said is "personal opinion" Htom Sirveaux Jul 2014 #96

But the fact that you agree with some of those items... trotsky Jul 2014 #97

You're creating a false dichotomy between Htom Sirveaux Jul 2014 #98

No, you're just wanting to pick a more nebulous standard for how we judge someone as being... trotsky Jul 2014 #99

A new false dichotomy Htom Sirveaux Jul 2014 #104

Ahem trotsky Jul 2014 #105

So the hidden assumption: Htom Sirveaux Jul 2014 #106

Ohhh, now I see your confusion. trotsky Jul 2014 #108

Can you expand on the meaning of Htom Sirveaux Jul 2014 #110

Some examples: trotsky Jul 2014 #111

Let's see if I understand now: Htom Sirveaux Jul 2014 #112

Or, to complete the circle: trotsky Aug 2014 #113

Then how do you answer my question: Htom Sirveaux Aug 2014 #114

Oh, I thought that was obvious. trotsky Aug 2014 #115

That yields some...odd results. Htom Sirveaux Aug 2014 #116

I don't believe that this is true. stone space Aug 2014 #119

You're right. Sedition acts are no more that secular blasphemy statutes. rug Aug 2014 #120

Using Sociology, we could call "religion" whatever calls itself that, or is called that, say. Brettongarcia Jul 2014 #8

OK Sirveau: so you've finally decided to come out as a Christian Liberal apologist. Brettongarcia Jul 2014 #54

Let's see if I can sum up: Htom Sirveaux Jul 2014 #78

Turnabout is fair play. Brettongarcia Jul 2014 #82

As a atheist pacifist, I must say that I find... stone space Aug 2014 #117

That would be a change of pace. rug Aug 2014 #118

The color-coded map: Jim__ Jul 2014 #6

I see problems for the authors' thesis: very liberal states often have severe environment Brettongarcia Jul 2014 #9

Two things strike me immediately about this map. okasha Jul 2014 #49

Saying slave states suffered 'threats' seems a strange value judgement muriel_volestrangler Jul 2014 #14

I think the authors stopped too soon on that one. Htom Sirveaux Jul 2014 #15

What about the excuses for the states responsible for the procurement and transportation of slaves Leontius Jul 2014 #28

What are they? muriel_volestrangler Jul 2014 #31

....they are just following their superior "moral compass". n/t aka-chmeee Jul 2014 #20

Are you the new "But It's Not Because Of Religion!" Spokesperson? I saw there was a vacancy. mr blur Jul 2014 #30

Wow, just wow! hrmjustin Jul 2014 #35

I think it is pretty exciting too. That post has been vacant for a while. Warren Stupidity Jul 2014 #47

I think this is a very interesting study, even if the results are not surprising. cbayer Jul 2014 #53

I find it unsurprising that strong religion is linked to poverty and ignorance; to the South Brettongarcia Jul 2014 #55

Surely the problem isn't "doing bad things", people will do those anyway intaglio Jul 2014 #56

It is not clear to me at all that "people will do those anyway". Warren Stupidity Jul 2014 #59

It is people who do bad things and attaching further qualifications intaglio Jul 2014 #60

So, for example, the shithead who killed George Tiller. Warren Stupidity Jul 2014 #61

He killed because he believed he was justified intaglio Jul 2014 #63

Religion has no responsibility for his actions? Warren Stupidity Jul 2014 #67

Religion provided justification intaglio Jul 2014 #69

And the chief voice of anti-abortionism ... was Catholic conservative religion. Brettongarcia Jul 2014 #72

To take just one of your points intaglio Jul 2014 #74

1) Prove which one was primary Brettongarcia Jul 2014 #75

No, I'm saying that motive and justification are different intaglio Jul 2014 #76

OK, thanks for clarification. Brettongarcia Jul 2014 #80

Still arbitrary. Warren Stupidity Jul 2014 #95

The crusades were motivated by both economics and religion. Warren Stupidity Jul 2014 #94

When you bond religion into the national, cultural, ethnic or racial and economic identity of a Leontius Jul 2014 #100

I don't separate it, I don't give religion a pass. Warren Stupidity Jul 2014 #101

But many people give all the other motivations a pass and just assign blame to religion. Leontius Jul 2014 #103

Well then these many people would be as wrong as the other many Warren Stupidity Jul 2014 #107

Except you can't move on without being able to separate motivation from justification. Leontius Jul 2014 #109

Take the religious part of it out and see what happens. trotsky Jul 2014 #102

This is a good point. cbayer Jul 2014 #71

Let's turn that around: what if it is claimed that religion doesn't have positive effects ... Brettongarcia Jul 2014 #73

But since the claim is clearly false, your statement is meaningless. n/t Fortinbras Armstrong Jul 2014 #77

? Brettongarcia Jul 2014 #81