Religion

Fortinbras Armstrong

(4,477 posts)

207. In other words, I called it correctly

Mon Aug 25, 2014, 06:27 AM

Aug 2014

If you agree with a moral pronouncement, then it is good as is the person making it; similarly, if you disagree, then the pronouncement and the person making it is bad.

And Dawkins said that not aborting a fetus with Down's would be immoral. That is as much a "judgment based on science" as the Pope saying it would be immoral. He did not say, "In my opinion, it would be immoral" or "it might be immoral", he said "Abort it and try again. It would be immoral to bring it into the world if you have the choice."

OK, you correctly stated Aquinas' opinion. So you are willing to listen to religious teachers if you agree with them? BTW,Thomas Aquinas also said that women are inferior to men (see the Summa Theologica, Supplement, question 39, article 1). Do you agree with him there?

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Richard Dawkins: �It Would Be Immoral� to Give Birth to A Child with Down�s Syndrome [View all] rug Aug 2014 OP

He just doesn't get that it's not what he says, but... TreasonousBastard Aug 2014 #1

Hyperbole right out of the gate! Impressive. JNelson6563 Aug 2014 #27

Sure, but doesn't the subject lend itself... TreasonousBastard Aug 2014 #32

Maybe not demanding, but calling those who would make a personal choice to not cbayer Aug 2014 #35

but calling those who would make a personal choice...immoral is much worse. AlbertCat Aug 2014 #89

Again, a vacant statement. But this time it gets the rolly eyes for extra added credit!! cbayer Aug 2014 #103

Clearly, he calls the choice to carry the fetus to term "immoral." Maedhros Aug 2014 #81

That's what I would do. AtheistCrusader Aug 2014 #31

It's what you would do? cbayer Aug 2014 #36

If I were female, pregnant, and that test came back with those results. AtheistCrusader Aug 2014 #39

Sorry, but you will never be a pregnant female and you can not even begin cbayer Aug 2014 #52

Disagree.* AtheistCrusader Aug 2014 #56

Of course you disagree. That is what happens when you are blinded by privilege, cbayer Aug 2014 #59

"This is a conscious decision" AtheistCrusader Aug 2014 #61

Of course you do, but you will never make the decision to have an abortion cbayer Aug 2014 #62

Again, I didn't judge anyone. AtheistCrusader Aug 2014 #63

I tend to be very reluctant to give advice. cbayer Aug 2014 #65

As a male, that's as close to implantation as I can get. AtheistCrusader Aug 2014 #72

Yes, it is as close as you will ever get, cbayer Aug 2014 #73

Just a note of thanks... haikugal Aug 2014 #86

Right, Dawkins decrees what is moral and what is not Fortinbras Armstrong Aug 2014 #111

Interesting objection you have here Lordquinton Aug 2014 #120

I am saying nothing about the morality of aborting a Downs fetus Fortinbras Armstrong Aug 2014 #180

The problem is not with people like you that would abort such a fetus, cbayer Aug 2014 #114

He uses Dorian Gray Aug 2014 #208

Sperm donor? kdmorris Aug 2014 #110

Oh, I am sure I could be much more insulting. cbayer Aug 2014 #112

I've certainly heard it in the context of abortion kdmorris Aug 2014 #116

Well, you know what some people say about insults, don't you? cbayer Aug 2014 #117

So "Next great meme" (to use Dawkin's term, nice one) Lordquinton Aug 2014 #121

No. The next great meme will be that I consider men to be nothing more than cbayer Aug 2014 #122

like I said about you misusing Richard Dawkins term Lordquinton Aug 2014 #123

Misusing it? I'm not misusing it at all. cbayer Aug 2014 #137

A meme is an idea that permeates through the culture Lordquinton Aug 2014 #203

I know what a meme is. cbayer Aug 2014 #205

Of course you disagree. That is what happens when you are blinded by privilege, AlbertCat Aug 2014 #91

Again with the rolly eyes? And again, I have to ask for clarification. cbayer Aug 2014 #104

Well stated, cbayer. Chemisse Aug 2014 #202

Hello, Chemisse! cbayer Aug 2014 #204

Demanding they abort it, AlbertCat Aug 2014 #88

A bit of hyperbole, as already noted, but... TreasonousBastard Aug 2014 #92

"abort it and try again" is not solid advice AlbertCat Aug 2014 #93

Find a woman, or a couple, with the problem... TreasonousBastard Aug 2014 #94

Then get back to us with their response. AlbertCat Aug 2014 #98

Using the imperative mood may well be interpreted as a demand. Starboard Tack Aug 2014 #148

Let's see.... (also the imperative mood.... but not a demand, obviously) AlbertCat Aug 2014 #159

I commented on the fact that he used the imperative. Starboard Tack Aug 2014 #167

Still ignoring he was asked for advice I see. AlbertCat Aug 2014 #170

Not at all. In fact that is the whole point. Thanks for reminding us. Starboard Tack Aug 2014 #182

If I saw 1/10 of the outrage by those of you obsessed with Dawkins Goblinmonger Aug 2014 #2

Do you have an opinion on his statement beyond tu quoque? rug Aug 2014 #3

It doesn't bother me. Goblinmonger Aug 2014 #6

He is injecting "morality" into the right to choose. rug Aug 2014 #7

I'll consider what Dawkins has to say about morality Goblinmonger Aug 2014 #12

My mileage does indeed vary. rug Aug 2014 #13

The Pope is directly relevant; the Catholic Church is a major voice in antiabortionism Brettongarcia Aug 2014 #19

Bullshit. Read the OP again. rug Aug 2014 #22

Dawkins speaks of abortion, and specifically "choice." Catholicism is the major anti-choice voice. Brettongarcia Aug 2014 #106

I haven't seen such contortions since freak shows were banned. rug Aug 2014 #107

No, Dawkins is giving a pronouncement "This is moral" Fortinbras Armstrong Aug 2014 #113

No. I don't say ALL moral judgements are wrong. I just say the churches' ideas are mostly wrong. Brettongarcia Aug 2014 #125

Oh, I see Fortinbras Armstrong Aug 2014 #179

I believe that religion has not made a convincing case in ethics, vs. reason-based systems Brettongarcia Aug 2014 #195

In other words, I called it correctly Fortinbras Armstrong Aug 2014 #207

No. I follow evidence, not people. Science, not strong-arming individuals. Brettongarcia Aug 2014 #210

Your Pope and your church ALSO inject "morality" into the opposition of choice. cleanhippie Aug 2014 #23

Yeah, but Dawkins is saying that all atheists need to do as he says. Goblinmonger Aug 2014 #24

+1 cleanhippie Aug 2014 #25

That makes his statement so much less obnoxious. rug Aug 2014 #29

No, he's telling women what to do. Starboard Tack Aug 2014 #71

Where does he say he is telling women what to do? Goblinmonger Aug 2014 #74

If the quote is accurate, he used the imperative. Starboard Tack Aug 2014 #75

Apparently your definition of 'morality' haikugal Aug 2014 #87

Where did I define "morality"? Starboard Tack Aug 2014 #105

Which has what to do with the OP? rug Aug 2014 #28

Yep. MellowDem Aug 2014 #4

Care to elaborate? rug Aug 2014 #8

Dawkins is a biologist... MellowDem Aug 2014 #84

When he is making a social pronouncement based on his morality, he's fair game. rug Aug 2014 #109

He's always fair game... MellowDem Aug 2014 #124

"12. Wait 90 days and repeat." rug Aug 2014 #129

What does this have to do with the Pope? Starboard Tack Aug 2014 #16

It's low grade deflection. rug Aug 2014 #30

pointing out the faux outrage when Dawkins says something akward Lordquinton Aug 2014 #136

Except we have threads that discuss the Pope Starboard Tack Aug 2014 #143

Well, the OP was about something Dawkins said that caused a sensation... TreasonousBastard Aug 2014 #33

Well, he seems to be to rug. mr blur Aug 2014 #37

As usual, what seems to be true to you is blurred. rug Aug 2014 #40

Very feeble response, even for you. mr blur Aug 2014 #115

That's all it required. rug Aug 2014 #118

I am the father of a special needs child. Maedhros Aug 2014 #82

Doesn't seem newsworthy... MellowDem Aug 2014 #5

It's odd that only you and goblinmonger mention a Pope? rug Aug 2014 #9

Something relating to religion... MellowDem Aug 2014 #83

I wouldn't say it's immoral, but it doesn't make a lot of sense LuvNewcastle Aug 2014 #10

You tell the reality of it well. rug Aug 2014 #11

You're right. It's wrong to judge people over something like that. LuvNewcastle Aug 2014 #14

Oh. My. God. cbayer Aug 2014 #15

Ms. cbayer is a medical professional pretending to be shocked at say, an optional D & C? Brettongarcia Aug 2014 #18

Meaning that the other 10% are immoral, of course. stone space Aug 2014 #20

Most suggest this should be a "choice" made by the woman herself. And no one else. Brettongarcia Aug 2014 #21

Of course. And most of us would go even further... stone space Aug 2014 #26

Is Dawkin's position that 1) not aborting deformed fetuses IS immoral in HIS opinion; 2) but ... Brettongarcia Aug 2014 #66

Sad! Starboard Tack Aug 2014 #17

That is apparently Dawkin's opinion. MineralMan Aug 2014 #34

What is the morality he invokes? rug Aug 2014 #38

You would need to address your question to Dawkins. MineralMan Aug 2014 #41

You'll have to do. rug Aug 2014 #43

On the question of abortion of Down Syndrome Fetuses? MineralMan Aug 2014 #45

No, on the morality that he is invoking. rug Aug 2014 #46

I have no opinion about Dawkins' morality. MineralMan Aug 2014 #49

Your ethical amalgam is mildly interesting but the topic is Dawkins'. rug Aug 2014 #50

And I told you what I think and that I cannot speak for him. MineralMan Aug 2014 #54

I fully grasp your incompetence on that subject. rug Aug 2014 #55

I made my personal ethic regarding reproductive choice MineralMan Aug 2014 #57

Do you not think that one can create one's own morality? Goblinmonger Aug 2014 #42

As a matter of fact, I think it happens all the time. But that was not the question. rug Aug 2014 #44

Again, you are asking someone about someone else's MineralMan Aug 2014 #47

Well, since he tweeted his morality to the world at large, that really is a non-answer. rug Aug 2014 #48

Actually, he tweeted his opinion about a single issue. MineralMan Aug 2014 #51

I agree with that. He reached into whatever bag of morality he has to address that issue. rug Aug 2014 #53

As do we all, do we not? tkmorris Aug 2014 #60

Naturally. And when we do, it's open for discussion. rug Aug 2014 #67

What would Hitler do? rock Aug 2014 #58

Well, now that you mention it . . . . rug Aug 2014 #68

Well, I was just making a joke rock Aug 2014 #70

What God did: slaughters all men, women, children, fetuses, that are not God's chosen Brettongarcia Aug 2014 #76

Do you find Dawkins' tweet more similar to that quote or to RCC doctrine? rug Aug 2014 #108

Closer to actual historical Catholic practice, and older versions of its doctrine. Brettongarcia Aug 2014 #126

With your scholarly expertise, link to earlier RCC doctrine on infanticide. rug Aug 2014 #128

The church I was born into allowed abortion. Its doctrine was that the embryo was NOT an "infant." Brettongarcia Aug 2014 #130

His dispute was primarily with the Church in Carthage. Augustine did also a century later. rug Aug 2014 #131

Nor has it ever been consistent or clear on what is an "infant" vs. an embryo Brettongarcia Aug 2014 #133

We now agree it condemned infanticide. rug Aug 2014 #134

The Church today whitewashes the fact that Tertullian left the Church; and was never reliable Brettongarcia Aug 2014 #138

By your last sentence, I take it you are acknowledging the existence of a soul. rug Aug 2014 #191

I read "soul" as basically a primitive early word for, more or less, a human "mind" or consciousness Brettongarcia Aug 2014 #196

I would have chosen the word "irresponsible" rather than "immoral" but only because... Humanist_Activist Aug 2014 #64

Good luck. I hope you don't have to make that choice. rug Aug 2014 #69

That's a tough decision Erich Bloodaxe BSN Aug 2014 #77

Its always a quality of life issue for me, I want my potential future child... Humanist_Activist Aug 2014 #79

Do you really want to go there? YarnAddict Aug 2014 #80

Downs Syndrome isn't just a cognitive disability. There are physical issues as well Heddi Aug 2014 #85

There are no guarantees in life YarnAddict Aug 2014 #90

Hell yes I want to go there, and your comparisons are fucking atrocious and offensive. Humanist_Activist Aug 2014 #95

Disgusting comment and sentiment. hrmjustin Aug 2014 #78

Why is the sentiment and comment disgusting? n/t Humanist_Activist Aug 2014 #96

It says these childrens lives have no meaning. hrmjustin Aug 2014 #97

What meaning would there be to create a life that suffers? Humanist_Activist Aug 2014 #99

Everyone's morality is a bit different. hrmjustin Aug 2014 #100

It's all about personal choice amuse bouche Aug 2014 #101

placenta shake is very good for you. Wonder if that was wasted as well? terdheadur Aug 2014 #102

"placenta shake is very good for you" No proof of that amuse bouche Aug 2014 #119

yeah I've seen five. terdheadur Aug 2014 #132

" just hate seeing good things go to waste" amuse bouche Aug 2014 #144

Well, he pissed off Sarah Palin, so that's a 'win' in my book. AtheistCrusader Aug 2014 #127

Really? As much as we collectively despise Sarah Palin, she cbayer Aug 2014 #139

She used that child as a prop. AtheistCrusader Aug 2014 #140

I agree that that is what she did and I am not defending her. cbayer Aug 2014 #141

I agree that it is petty and unflattering. AtheistCrusader Aug 2014 #142

I babysat for a boy with Down's syndrome. AndreaCG Aug 2014 #135

What happens when that child is 30 and functions the same as he did when 7? amuse bouche Aug 2014 #145

Whoa! Have you spent any time at all with people with Downs and the people who love them? cbayer Aug 2014 #146

I've spent more that 25 years in the medical field and have seen plenty of people dumping amuse bouche Aug 2014 #149

What do you do in the medical field, if you don't mind me asking? cbayer Aug 2014 #150

"It outraged me to the point that I really crossed my own line in terms of being civil. " amuse bouche Aug 2014 #152

Yes it does attract outraged hysterical types. You would be a part of that, no? cbayer Aug 2014 #160

"I hope that no one alerts on this, because it should stand for anyone who happens by to see." amuse bouche Aug 2014 #154

If you stand by that post, there is nothing else to be said. cbayer Aug 2014 #163

My guess is medical billing. rug Aug 2014 #192

I honestly don't think it has anything to do with actual patient care. cbayer Aug 2014 #193

Resentment of what will set in? Starboard Tack Aug 2014 #147

Mengele? Can we keep the hyperbole to a dull roar? AtheistCrusader Aug 2014 #151

"Mengele? Can we keep the hyperbole to a dull roar?" amuse bouche Aug 2014 #153

"They"? Is that the same as "you people"? cbayer Aug 2014 #165

"They"? Is that the same as "you people"? amuse bouche Aug 2014 #181

I'm not referring to a woman choosing to abort any fetus. That is her choice. Trisomy 21 or not Starboard Tack Aug 2014 #155

"a poster who is concerned about "cuddliness" and "resentment" amuse bouche Aug 2014 #156

I didn't see any reference to "clients" or "patients" Starboard Tack Aug 2014 #162

Do you have clients or do you have patients? cbayer Aug 2014 #166

" Do you have clients or do you have patients?" amuse bouche Aug 2014 #171

You brought up your extensive medical experience on which you cbayer Aug 2014 #174

"I could guess what that is all about, but I think I will just leave it alone" amuse bouche Aug 2014 #177

He was speaking to a reason WHY someone might make that choice. AtheistCrusader Aug 2014 #157

She .... and yes, thankfully you have comprehension skills, amuse bouche Aug 2014 #158

I said he was sounding more like Mengele with every pronouncement. Starboard Tack Aug 2014 #184

And? AtheistCrusader Aug 2014 #185

Please tell me what you think of that post by amuse bouche. cbayer Aug 2014 #164

I agree with the 1:6 jury outcome. AtheistCrusader Aug 2014 #175

Jury results SecularMotion Aug 2014 #168

Just to add: I was Juror 2, and I am nevertheless horrified beyond belief at the Mengele comparison! LeftishBrit Aug 2014 #169

Why were you horrified beyond belief? Starboard Tack Aug 2014 #183

Not that anyone would do this, but let's construct a hypothetical. To examine morality. AtheistCrusader Aug 2014 #186

Deciding to bring a fetus to term cannot be immoral in any circumstances, imo Starboard Tack Aug 2014 #187

Im not talking about the choice to bring it to term. AtheistCrusader Aug 2014 #188

I think any "gaming" of the system has potential moral implications. Starboard Tack Aug 2014 #189

Have to take off for the day, but just one quick item AtheistCrusader Aug 2014 #190

He has the right to his opinion but I still think it is too harsh. hrmjustin Aug 2014 #161

"What maybe the right decision for some may not be for others." amuse bouche Aug 2014 #172

I don't think it is hard to comprehend but I think peopke take issue with his calling it immoral hrmjustin Aug 2014 #173

He's not wrong. It's one point of view amuse bouche Aug 2014 #176

He is not wrong to you. Others have other ideas on it. hrmjustin Aug 2014 #178

And that's a choice he called immoral. rug Aug 2014 #194

Rug, of Democratic Underground, just called Dawkins "an ass." Next? He repeats it. Brettongarcia Aug 2014 #197

Lol, watch the video. rug Aug 2014 #198

Not the least bit funny or forgivable either. Brettongarcia Aug 2014 #199

It may just be yours. rug Aug 2014 #200

Good thing it's still her choice. Iris Aug 2014 #201

It does make one wonder whether it would be her choice cbayer Aug 2014 #206

yep. Iris Aug 2014 #209