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Religion

In reply to the discussion: Is Free Will an Illusion? [View all]

Jim__

(15,225 posts)
3. A couple of thoughts.
Thu Dec 15, 2011, 05:58 PM
Dec 2011

First, take this excerpt from that article:


Scientists have postulated that consciousness is populations of neurons firing in certain brain areas, no more and no less. To most people, however, it seems bizarre to think that the distinctive tang of kumquats, say, is just a pattern of neural activation.

Our instincts about consciousness are triggered by specific cues, experimental philosophers explain, among them the existence of eyes and the appearance of goal-directed behavior, but not neurons. Studies indicate that people’s intuitions tell them that insects—which, of course, have eyes and show goal-directed behavior—can feel happiness, pain and anger.

The problem is that insects very likely lack the neural wherewithal for these sensations and emotions. What is more, engineers have programmed robots to display simple goal-directed behaviors, and these robots can produce the uncanny impression that they have feelings, even though the machines are not remotely plausible candidates for having awareness. In short, our instincts can lead us astray on this matter, too. Maybe consciousness does not have to be something different from—or above and beyond—brain processes.


It really looks to me like the author confuses two issues. In the first paragraph of the excerpt, he tells us that our consciousness may be the result of the firing of populations of certain neurons. Yes, I think it is - but I'm not sure what that tells us. Then he goes on to point out that our perception of consciousness in others can be mistaken. Yes, it can. But what does that tell us about our own consciousness? Can our awareness that we are aware be mistaken? The problem of consciousness is how simple neuronal activity, essentially discrete fire/don't fire activity, can raise self-awareness. The argument he uses about our perception of consciousness in others tells us nothing about our own consciousness; and it's our own consciousness that is the issue.

As to whether or not we have free will, the question is open. A good article that presents the other side from what this article presented is Towards a scientific concept of free will as a biological trait ( http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/early/2010/12/14/rspb.2010.2325.full )

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

Is Free Will an Illusion? [View all] FarCenter Dec 2011 OP
No. -- I am programmed to say that. immoderate Dec 2011 #1
Probably. n/t laconicsax Dec 2011 #2
A couple of thoughts. Jim__ Dec 2011 #3
Wow. This is gonna make a hit at the Annual Solipsism Tournament! n/t TygrBright Dec 2011 #4
I really wanted to say no... Fumesucker Dec 2011 #5
Within the context of some religions for whom it is a key doctrinal element...yup. iris27 Dec 2011 #6
Free from what? ChadwickHenryWard Dec 2011 #7
Two possibilities are that ... Boojatta Dec 2011 #9
The alternative is not predestination, but rather that the unconscious makes most of the decisions FarCenter Dec 2011 #24
If one has no choices, and if (in particular) one has no choice about the positions struggle4progress Dec 2011 #8
I watched a show on Science channel a week or so ago EvolveOrConvolve Dec 2011 #10
Well all of that is based on one single beliefe zeemike Dec 2011 #11
It may also be that time is a giant space octopus, or an odorless scent. laconicsax Dec 2011 #12
Can't prrove a negative... zeemike Dec 2011 #18
How do they explain devices that measure time? ZombieHorde Dec 2011 #14
Obviously, clocks aren't real. n/t laconicsax Dec 2011 #15
No clocks are real zeemike Dec 2011 #20
How do you know what you claim to know? laconicsax Dec 2011 #29
He may be using one of the "other ways of knowing," cleanhippie Dec 2011 #41
They don't zeemike Dec 2011 #17
The Platonic forms don't exist, sorry. n/t laconicsax Dec 2011 #21
And you know this how? zeemike Dec 2011 #23
I could ask you the exact same question. laconicsax Dec 2011 #28
I am not claiming to know anything zeemike Dec 2011 #39
Sure you are. You have made several bold proclamations. cleanhippie Dec 2011 #42
Cave-mechanics tama Dec 2011 #27
Our mind is the source of all perception. zeemike Dec 2011 #40
Name it tama Dec 2011 #44
Are you saying everything happens at once? nt ZombieHorde Dec 2011 #22
I am not saying anything ...I am saying that illusion is possable in the mind zeemike Dec 2011 #25
What time is real, what illusion? tama Dec 2011 #19
Perhaps it is all illusion zeemike Dec 2011 #26
Time doesn't exist? ChadwickHenryWard Dec 2011 #31
Time tama Dec 2011 #32
Unfortunatly this brings up another mind boggler zeemike Dec 2011 #38
No trouble tama Dec 2011 #45
I know it chalanges your mind zeemike Dec 2011 #37
How can you call something an "illusion" ChadwickHenryWard Dec 2011 #46
Well I probably should not have brought this up here zeemike Dec 2011 #47
There was a study that suggested people have "free won't." ZombieHorde Dec 2011 #13
I heard of the "Free Won't" hypothesis a while ago. It's very interesting. Odin2005 Dec 2011 #16
Freedom not to choose?! nt tama Dec 2011 #33
I don't believe in free will, uriel1972 Dec 2011 #30
What's really going to bake your noodle later is darkstar3 Dec 2011 #34
How will I choose to respond? uriel1972 Dec 2011 #35
I think my point was about "illusion" darkstar3 Dec 2011 #36
Massimo Pigliucci's free will roundtable. Jim__ Dec 2011 #43
This is going to get complicated. so bear with me. westerebus Dec 2011 #48
The "sacrifice of his only son" would be inconsequential to god FarCenter Dec 2011 #49
But not to man. westerebus Dec 2011 #50
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