Religion

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)

43. At this moment, there is insufficient data.

Thu Dec 18, 2014, 01:47 PM

Dec 2014

Where we differ, is one of our positions requires faith, and one does not. You've chosen faith. Ok.

Rationality puts me in a different place, and on a lot more issues than just this one.
Interestingly, I don't have any 'givens' like that, but I do rely on a couple axioms, such as 'existence exists' (though I am aware that the universe may be a hologram at its most fundamental level, and I am ok with that possibility) or 'self ownership', but only because these things can be critically and rationally examined, challenged, and tested, even if the manner of test is 'acceptable as a working premise but unproven until falsified'.

I suppose your position on jesus is similar to my concept of an axiom. However, being that he was claimed to be a real historical character, as well as a supernaturally imbued biblical character, some of those things can be supported/refuted, where philosophical abstracts like self ownership, aren't.

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Did historical Jesus really exist? The evidence just doesn’t add up. [View all] cleanhippie Dec 2014 OP

Well I still believe in Jesus. hrmjustin Dec 2014 #1

Of course you do. cleanhippie Dec 2014 #3

They can not prove to me it didn't happen. hrmjustin Dec 2014 #5

Of course they can't cleanhippie Dec 2014 #6

that is fine but I wanted to go on the record here. hrmjustin Dec 2014 #7

Again? cleanhippie Dec 2014 #8

Close-minded? I think not. hrmjustin Dec 2014 #11

Close-minded? Absolutely. cleanhippie Dec 2014 #15

Hilarious! hrmjustin Dec 2014 #18

When you're right you're right. cleanhippie Dec 2014 #22

Well we will just leave it at this because this will only go downhill now. hrmjustin Dec 2014 #23

You sure about that? Seems like we reached the bottom some time ago. cleanhippie Dec 2014 #25

Low i think not. hrmjustin Dec 2014 #26

Cya, Justin. cleanhippie Dec 2014 #27

In fairness to Justin and those like him, he must go on record here or anywhere NoJusticeNoPeace Dec 2014 #52

I've no doubt that justin is a loving, wonderful, peace loving person. cleanhippie Dec 2014 #65

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. And, they who resort to ad homina have lost. NYC_SKP Dec 2014 #75

This is what he has stated himself over and over again. cleanhippie Dec 2014 #79

"regurgitation of tired apologist arguments and asinine statements" = failure. NYC_SKP Dec 2014 #86

Lol cleanhippie Dec 2014 #87

"Scientists Feral Child Dec 2014 #169

Are you a scientist? I am. NYC_SKP Dec 2014 #171

Yes but Feral Child Dec 2014 #195

I see, you don't accept my experience. That's very sad. NYC_SKP Dec 2014 #198

I did respond to your post. Feral Child Dec 2014 #202

I just called Heddi Dec 2014 #241

Interesting. NYC_SKP Dec 2014 #268

I thought the reply was hillarious Heddi Dec 2014 #269

Pay no attention Feral Child Dec 2014 #280

Oh, my. Feral Child Dec 2014 #278

I think what they are saying edhopper Dec 2014 #209

Thank you for the well reasoned and civil reply. NYC_SKP Dec 2014 #212

I think a man named Yeshua living edhopper Dec 2014 #230

I don't take any religious texts at face value, as gospel truths (couldn't resist). NYC_SKP Dec 2014 #231

You have to wonder edhopper Dec 2014 #233

I saw those numbers. It is absolutely amazing. NYC_SKP Dec 2014 #237

Do you think this jesus person was a god? Warren Stupidity Dec 2014 #234

Why would I think that? Odd how people in the A-A group say "I'm not one of them". NYC_SKP Dec 2014 #238

Scientific " faith"is not the same word as used in religious faith, you are confusing yourself. Fred Sanders Dec 2014 #254

Neither are they black and white, nor found exclusive of one another. NYC_SKP Dec 2014 #265

Most who believe Jesus didn't exist aren't scholars. okasha Dec 2014 #148

Thanks. hrmjustin Dec 2014 #159

The correct word should be doesn't. Leontius Dec 2014 #172

He is risen indeed! hrmjustin Dec 2014 #173

This message was self-deleted by its author okasha Dec 2014 #181

There are plenty of genuine scholars who do support his existence. okasha Dec 2014 #183

Your comment about Josephus is completely untrue Trajan Dec 2014 #190

Wrong. okasha Dec 2014 #192

I've read lots of texts that mention Paul Bunyan, SheilaT Dec 2014 #204

Were those history or current affairs books? okasha Dec 2014 #208

There are plenty of history and current affairs books SheilaT Dec 2014 #213

I don't believe that history according to Dan Brown has any professional support. okasha Dec 2014 #242

No, no professional support, SheilaT Dec 2014 #253

And some of them are right here on DU. okasha Dec 2014 #261

OK, this one bit of snark strikes me as funny. riqster Dec 2014 #276

Oddly enough most who believe Jesus did exist aren't scholars either. Warren Stupidity Dec 2014 #235

Not in the least. okasha Dec 2014 #243

This message was self-deleted by its author John1956PA Dec 2014 #245

so your close minded MFM008 Dec 2014 #72

Say what? cleanhippie Dec 2014 #74

What would be evidence for the non-existence of the tooth fairy? Warren Stupidity Dec 2014 #111

isn't that the entire basis of religious belief? Skittles Dec 2014 #252

That's totally already on the record....lol. Iggo Dec 2014 #50

Yes and I said it again. hrmjustin Dec 2014 #51

and again, and again, and again... cleanhippie Dec 2014 #69

Rationally, the burden of proof lies with the people who claim he DID exist. AtheistCrusader Dec 2014 #13

Stop it. Just stop it right now. cleanhippie Dec 2014 #19

Only if they are trying to convince you he was real. hrmjustin Dec 2014 #20

Right. You're only trying to convince yourself. cleanhippie Dec 2014 #24

Well, he is convincing me he has nothing convincing to give me. Faith, of course, can not be proven. Fred Sanders Dec 2014 #255

But you do engage with a 'they' that do not accept that premise, and whom AtheistCrusader Dec 2014 #33

I come to the discussion with one given. i can't prove he existed. hrmjustin Dec 2014 #38

At this moment, there is insufficient data. AtheistCrusader Dec 2014 #43

We cant prove leprechauns dont exist either, but they dont. NoJusticeNoPeace Dec 2014 #53

WHAT ! ! ! ! nichomachus Dec 2014 #64

What became of the gold DonViejo Dec 2014 #106

I have thought about that too edhopper Dec 2014 #114

Not even a card? PassingFair Dec 2014 #201

no MFM008 Dec 2014 #73

Like what? cleanhippie Dec 2014 #76

must have been MFM008 Dec 2014 #80

Can't say since you won't tell me. cleanhippie Dec 2014 #83

So that's it? Just a "well I had this experience once, so there"? cleanhippie Dec 2014 #160

Only one side *requires* proof. The side making an extraordinary claim. AtheistCrusader Dec 2014 #117

Come on AC, he had some sort of "profound experience" so... cleanhippie Dec 2014 #161

How many specific, individual people from 1st century Palestine could be "proven"... YoungDemCA Dec 2014 #91

lots may have existed. AtheistCrusader Dec 2014 #121

Very scary way of thinking. phil89 Dec 2014 #10

Your scared by my faith? hrmjustin Dec 2014 #12

Inconvenienced by the general existence of it. AtheistCrusader Dec 2014 #14

That is not what I asked and I am not responsible in anyway shape ot form by the litany you just hrmjustin Dec 2014 #17

Au contraire. AtheistCrusader Dec 2014 #32

Let me put it another way, because that last paragraph I just wrote is probably difficult to parse. AtheistCrusader Dec 2014 #168

I understand. hrmjustin Dec 2014 #170

I don't think you do. cleanhippie Dec 2014 #216

Thats nice. hrmjustin Dec 2014 #217

It's not nice, it's dishonest and unfortunate. cleanhippie Dec 2014 #218

Your calling me a liar? hrmjustin Dec 2014 #219

No. cleanhippie Dec 2014 #220

Your complaining because I gave a short response? hrmjustin Dec 2014 #221

I'm not complaining, I'm commenting. cleanhippie Dec 2014 #222

Sounds more like complaining to me. hrmjustin Dec 2014 #223

Of course it does. If you understood, you would know the difference. cleanhippie Dec 2014 #224

Gee I was going to say the same to you. hrmjustin Dec 2014 #225

You would've if you actually understood. cleanhippie Dec 2014 #226

Good bye cleanhippie. hrmjustin Dec 2014 #227

Cya, Justin. cleanhippie Dec 2014 #228

Self delete. Feral Child Dec 2014 #56

Well at least your honest. Wrong but honest. hrmjustin Dec 2014 #58

You're gloating is premature. Feral Child Dec 2014 #162

Why are you trying to bait me? i did not alert on your post nor am I going to. hrmjustin Dec 2014 #164

I'm baiting *you*? Feral Child Dec 2014 #196

Hang back and alert, maybe you'll get lucky. hrmjustin Dec 2014 #203

Not bait. Feral Child Dec 2014 #206

No thank you. hrmjustin Dec 2014 #207

You should consider revising and reposting this as it's own OP. cleanhippie Dec 2014 #71

at one time MFM008 Dec 2014 #78

They are scared of your faith. Leontius Dec 2014 #95

This is an interesting point. hrmjustin Dec 2014 #100

How utterly offensive Heddi Dec 2014 #107

If it offends you I am sorry but it is a reasonable question. hrmjustin Dec 2014 #110

You're not sorry, and it's not a reasonable question Heddi Dec 2014 #116

My point was I wonder how many Atheists here wished they had faith. hrmjustin Dec 2014 #118

I'll be sure to remind you of your words Heddi Dec 2014 #125

Goodbye Heddi! hrmjustin Dec 2014 #127

They are jealous of the atheist lack of faith and belief only in science and facts that can be Fred Sanders Dec 2014 #257

I wonder if they're jealous of my freedom from the fear of the eternity Heddi Dec 2014 #258

Yes. Not having to think about the many versions of Hell is a relief they do not have. Fred Sanders Dec 2014 #259

And the best part Heddi Dec 2014 #260

I think about hell almost as much as I value your opinion. Leontius Dec 2014 #264

How Christian of you. Fred Sanders Dec 2014 #266

If by chance someone who read it is an idiot they can ask for an explaination. Leontius Dec 2014 #267

You're better than that, Justin. Goblinmonger Dec 2014 #123

I never said you did and I don't have a bad opinion of atheists. hrmjustin Dec 2014 #124

No, you just agreed that we were jealous of your faith Heddi Dec 2014 #128

keep going if you like. for the record I hope no one alerts on you. hrmjustin Dec 2014 #130

No, you keep going, Justin. cleanhippie Dec 2014 #144

Please go reread the post that you replied to with "good point." Goblinmonger Dec 2014 #129

Well you have the right to take it how you want but I never meant all of you. hrmjustin Dec 2014 #134

That's just not true, Leontius. Feral Child Dec 2014 #103

You forgot edhopper Dec 2014 #115

No I didn't Leontius Dec 2014 #119

You did use whom correctly. Goblinmonger Dec 2014 #126

There is a group that posts here a lot that I feel are perfectly defined Leontius Dec 2014 #133

It's backpedaling. rug Dec 2014 #136

I'm sure he feels I'm doing both. Leontius Dec 2014 #139

If it can't be rebutted, they make up some shit and rebut that. rug Dec 2014 #142

Holy shit, dude. That's a lot of offensive bullshit to put in one post. Goblinmonger Dec 2014 #122

Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahaha! cleanhippie Dec 2014 #145

The amount of knowledge and truth in your post is up to it's standard level Leontius Dec 2014 #166

Careful you're projecting again. cleanhippie Dec 2014 #175

Your courage has been seen and measured here in this thread Leontius Dec 2014 #263

Says the oh-so-brave keyboard warrior. cleanhippie Dec 2014 #270

jury results RussBLib Dec 2014 #271

Yes! That must be it! PassingFair Dec 2014 #244

You might want to read the story of Isis, Osiris and Horus WhiteTara Dec 2014 #2

Shhhhhhhh. Every time that gets brought up around here... cleanhippie Dec 2014 #4

For the story about his "resurrection" you might enjoy WhiteTara Dec 2014 #40

Has nothing to do with the Jesus narrative. cleanhippie Dec 2014 #41

not coincidence...several centuries before WhiteTara Dec 2014 #138

I didn't think I needed the sarcasm tag. cleanhippie Dec 2014 #141

you didn't WhiteTara Dec 2014 #143

Oh, ok. cleanhippie Dec 2014 #147

No, No, No! WhiteTara Dec 2014 #149

No worries. cleanhippie Dec 2014 #150

Uh, no, it doesn't. okasha Dec 2014 #154

Created flame bait? Warren Stupidity Dec 2014 #9

Sorry. cleanhippie Dec 2014 #21

LMAO n/t trotsky Dec 2014 #31

Oh yeah? bvf Dec 2014 #16

You rascal! Feral Child Dec 2014 #28

See Frontline, from Jesus to Christ, elleng Dec 2014 #29

Summary, please? cleanhippie Dec 2014 #45

Lengthy history, elleng Dec 2014 #55

Have you seen this or is it a new series? cleanhippie Dec 2014 #67

It was first broadcast on PBS some time ago ... Trajan Dec 2014 #81

What was the conclusion? cleanhippie Dec 2014 #84

They were not looking to answer the question posed in the OP, elleng Dec 2014 #101

Ahh, more of a 'this is how the story came to be' type of a thing? cleanhippie Dec 2014 #104

Yes, as historians. elleng Dec 2014 #112

Cool, thanks. I'll check it out. cleanhippie Dec 2014 #137

I agree, says this agnostic. elleng Dec 2014 #98

Saw much of Part 1 last night, elleng Dec 2014 #97

I believe it's available on pbs.org choie Dec 2014 #120

Probably is and yes, elleng Dec 2014 #135

That far back it is difficult to find evidence that a king really existed Drale Dec 2014 #30

Well gosh there is plenty of evidence for all sorts of actual human beings. Warren Stupidity Dec 2014 #35

The Romans were actually very meticulous record keepers. cleanhippie Dec 2014 #37

Perhaps that lack of Roman documentation was deliberate on their part YoungDemCA Dec 2014 #82

I'm sure that's it. cleanhippie Dec 2014 #85

True. edhopper Dec 2014 #89

No one knows. Kirk Douglas to the contrary. okasha Dec 2014 #155

Give us a link to the Roman records in their occupation of Judea and Galilee kwassa Dec 2014 #197

The Romans executed many tens of thousands of criminals and politically dangerous folk. thucythucy Dec 2014 #211

If, 2000 years from now, a large portion of the planets worships me as a god cleanhippie Dec 2014 #214

harry potter has 7 books about him, therefore he is 7X more likely to be real nt msongs Dec 2014 #34

That would stand to reason. cleanhippie Dec 2014 #39

This right here is the key, I think: trotsky Dec 2014 #36

Every work of history written by eyewitnesses or not is biased so there is no Leontius Dec 2014 #240

Maybe he didn't walk the earth Sanity Claws Dec 2014 #42

There was a book I read edhopper Dec 2014 #44

Probably just like they react to ANYTHING contrary to their belief. cleanhippie Dec 2014 #48

Are you talking about the Gospel of Judas? hrmjustin Dec 2014 #49

No edhopper Dec 2014 #61

Like this miracle? PassingFair Dec 2014 #247

with all due respect DonCoquixote Dec 2014 #46

There are better examples, I think. Act_of_Reparation Dec 2014 #57

oh indeed DonCoquixote Dec 2014 #63

To answer that question, I would look at Joseph Smith. Act_of_Reparation Dec 2014 #68

I like this post YoungDemCA Dec 2014 #88

"No, they did not find Hector or Helen" - nobody is questioning that Jerusalem exists. Warren Stupidity Dec 2014 #62

true, although DonCoquixote Dec 2014 #66

Some people will never believe any evidence of nonexistence Politicalboi Dec 2014 #47

But you get why they would believe such obvious nonsense, right? NoJusticeNoPeace Dec 2014 #54

Those people you speak of bvf Dec 2014 #59

Wrong. okasha Dec 2014 #158

4 possibilities zipplewrath Dec 2014 #60

What is a "a professionally secular PhD researcher"? rug Dec 2014 #70

I don't believe he earned a legitimate PhD. Maybe it's an honorary PhD from www.bullshit.net NYC_SKP Dec 2014 #93

Are you saying that WaPo published an article with a fake author holding fake credentials? cleanhippie Dec 2014 #94

What, you think it's the first time? NYC_SKP Dec 2014 #96

. hrmjustin Dec 2014 #99

Wow, just wow. cleanhippie Dec 2014 #109

Is that a yes? cleanhippie Dec 2014 #102

Yes. That's a yes. Phony and shit for brains dude has a page at University of G'Day! NYC_SKP Dec 2014 #113

From what I see (links provided in previous post) his PhD paper is there for you to read. cleanhippie Dec 2014 #140

Does the University of Sydney call its PhDs Mister? rug Dec 2014 #132

I've found exclusive footage of Dr. Lataster in his office at the UoS!!! NYC_SKP Dec 2014 #165

Are you using Bing or something? Google returned these results... cleanhippie Dec 2014 #108

The vast majority of reputed historians and scholars from related disciplines disagree YoungDemCA Dec 2014 #77

A very good article. Act_of_Reparation Dec 2014 #157

Thanks for the links. I hadn't seen that. Great, objective writing from a real academic. NYC_SKP Dec 2014 #167

Self delete Feral Child Dec 2014 #90

I'm not familiar with the post you are talking about, so I cannot comment on that. cleanhippie Dec 2014 #92

"...shrouded in controversy..." Mike Nelson Dec 2014 #105

I know, right? Next month: Did Historical Buddha Really Exist?". Professional Whacks say "Derp". NYC_SKP Dec 2014 #131

Too funny. Your original premise that he is a fake author was debunked cleanhippie Dec 2014 #146

=:-) Your characterization of my claims is wrong. I didn't say he wasn't a real author. NYC_SKP Dec 2014 #151

Are you not seeing his paper and credentials on the UofS website? cleanhippie Dec 2014 #152

You poor thing! I looked at each link. No mention of his "PhD". So he's an author. Duh. NYC_SKP Dec 2014 #163

Here ya go, pumpkin. cleanhippie Dec 2014 #174

Bravo. He hasn't earned his PhD. Game. Set. Match. You Lose. NYC_SKP Dec 2014 #177

This message was self-deleted by its author cleanhippie Dec 2014 #179

I just realized that all this hubabaloo is due to your abject failure at reading comprehension. cleanhippie Dec 2014 #185

It's just how he rolls. Leontius Dec 2014 #153

This message was self-deleted by its author cleanhippie Dec 2014 #156

Who knows but we all know that Santa did. jwirr Dec 2014 #176

Will this thread be locked too? I see some emotional posts here. Warren Stupidity Dec 2014 #178

If you can keep your head when all about you rug Dec 2014 #180

The OP is legit, even if the author of the article doesn't hold a PhD but others insist he does. NYC_SKP Dec 2014 #182

The only one ever insisting that he was a fake one was you. Look at your response to rug cleanhippie Dec 2014 #187

His personal website says he's a PhD researcher. That is a lie, and he is a liar wannabe. NYC_SKP Dec 2014 #188

Nice try, skippy, but this ain't about me. cleanhippie Dec 2014 #191

Probably, since it's about the historical jesus, not the religious one. cleanhippie Dec 2014 #186

I don't know if Jesus walked the Earth or not. nilesobek Dec 2014 #184

Jesus is not God. Like Mohammed and Buddha, Jesus was a historic mortal human being. NYC_SKP Dec 2014 #189

You are absolutely incorrect. mr blur Dec 2014 #194

The other two dudes never claim to be the Son of God, or divine, only one is literally God. Fred Sanders Dec 2014 #262

This topic is becoming a real holiday tradition of anti-Christians goldent Dec 2014 #193

It is our own DU War on Christmas! Right here, pull up a chair. kwassa Dec 2014 #199

For sure, I always get a kick out of it. goldent Dec 2014 #249

Discussing whether the basis for the largest religion in the world is real Goblinmonger Dec 2014 #200

No, but if you follow the links and read the material goldent Dec 2014 #248

"Anti-Christians". Lol cleanhippie Dec 2014 #205

Well, the arguments I found in following the links need goldent Dec 2014 #250

Ok and why would that be a problem? Warren Stupidity Dec 2014 #236

I welcome this kind of stuff in the Religion forum goldent Dec 2014 #246

There is no proof of the existence of the vast majority of human beings thucythucy Dec 2014 #210

And yet only one particular person is worshiped as a god. cleanhippie Dec 2014 #215

Not particularly. thucythucy Dec 2014 #239

"The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence." - Carl Sagan kwassa Dec 2014 #256

Wait - If Jesus didn't exist, then who spoke the words in red in the Bible? yellowcanine Dec 2014 #229

First Thesalonians, dated to 51 or 52 CE by internal evidence Agnosticsherbet Dec 2014 #232

I'm an agnostic, but I believe that some person named Yeshua probably existed. Xithras Dec 2014 #251

I don't know that it matters now Prophet 451 Dec 2014 #272

Though what they believe is important, edhopper Dec 2014 #273

Perhaps Prophet 451 Dec 2014 #274

I don't buy the belief=love tautology edhopper Dec 2014 #275

Not a tautology Prophet 451 Dec 2014 #279

I am sure the experience feels very real edhopper Dec 2014 #282

Let me put it this way Prophet 451 Dec 2014 #283

I don't think you are crazy or delusional or anything like that edhopper Dec 2014 #284

I find it offensive Rye Bread Pizza Dec 2014 #277

. cleanhippie Dec 2014 #281

I find it offensive edhopper Dec 2014 #285

It would have to be more like three months, now. Mariana Dec 2014 #286

That's funny. DavidDvorkin Dec 2014 #287

There isn't much collaborative evidence mmonk Dec 2014 #288