Religion

Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)

57. There are better examples, I think.

Thu Dec 18, 2014, 02:25 PM

Dec 2014

Because something as large and enduring as a city is well within the historian's ability to locate, date, and confirm. Individual people, as you note, are much harder.

Sticking with Homer as our point of reference, I'd say Achilles or Odysseus are better examples. Sure, there very well may have been Greek soldiers with these names who fought and/or died in Asia Minor during the Mycenaean period, but we can be reasonably certain that neither of these guys were blessed with (near) invulnerability or ever ran into a hungry cyclops.

That leaves us with a philosophical noodle-baker: if everything we know about these figures is wrong, can they be said to have "existed", if only for sharing a name with a contemporaneous person?

Personally, I'm not sure that we can. A man named Yeshua bar Yosef was likely to have lived in first century Judea, but the Jesus of Nazareth recorded in the Gospels is almost certainly myth. I don't think a Christian can point at this man and say, "Look, Jesus existed!" when the real Jesus bears little to no resemblance to the one in which they believe. For all intents and purposes, they are describing two different people with the same name.

Edit history

Please sign in to view edit histories.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

288 replies

= new reply since forum marked as read

Highlight:

Did historical Jesus really exist? The evidence just doesn’t add up. [View all] cleanhippie Dec 2014 OP

Well I still believe in Jesus. hrmjustin Dec 2014 #1

Of course you do. cleanhippie Dec 2014 #3

They can not prove to me it didn't happen. hrmjustin Dec 2014 #5

Of course they can't cleanhippie Dec 2014 #6

that is fine but I wanted to go on the record here. hrmjustin Dec 2014 #7

Again? cleanhippie Dec 2014 #8

Close-minded? I think not. hrmjustin Dec 2014 #11

Close-minded? Absolutely. cleanhippie Dec 2014 #15

Hilarious! hrmjustin Dec 2014 #18

When you're right you're right. cleanhippie Dec 2014 #22

Well we will just leave it at this because this will only go downhill now. hrmjustin Dec 2014 #23

You sure about that? Seems like we reached the bottom some time ago. cleanhippie Dec 2014 #25

Low i think not. hrmjustin Dec 2014 #26

Cya, Justin. cleanhippie Dec 2014 #27

In fairness to Justin and those like him, he must go on record here or anywhere NoJusticeNoPeace Dec 2014 #52

I've no doubt that justin is a loving, wonderful, peace loving person. cleanhippie Dec 2014 #65

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. And, they who resort to ad homina have lost. NYC_SKP Dec 2014 #75

This is what he has stated himself over and over again. cleanhippie Dec 2014 #79

"regurgitation of tired apologist arguments and asinine statements" = failure. NYC_SKP Dec 2014 #86

Lol cleanhippie Dec 2014 #87

"Scientists Feral Child Dec 2014 #169

Are you a scientist? I am. NYC_SKP Dec 2014 #171

Yes but Feral Child Dec 2014 #195

I see, you don't accept my experience. That's very sad. NYC_SKP Dec 2014 #198

I did respond to your post. Feral Child Dec 2014 #202

I just called Heddi Dec 2014 #241

Interesting. NYC_SKP Dec 2014 #268

I thought the reply was hillarious Heddi Dec 2014 #269

Pay no attention Feral Child Dec 2014 #280

Oh, my. Feral Child Dec 2014 #278

I think what they are saying edhopper Dec 2014 #209

Thank you for the well reasoned and civil reply. NYC_SKP Dec 2014 #212

I think a man named Yeshua living edhopper Dec 2014 #230

I don't take any religious texts at face value, as gospel truths (couldn't resist). NYC_SKP Dec 2014 #231

You have to wonder edhopper Dec 2014 #233

I saw those numbers. It is absolutely amazing. NYC_SKP Dec 2014 #237

Do you think this jesus person was a god? Warren Stupidity Dec 2014 #234

Why would I think that? Odd how people in the A-A group say "I'm not one of them". NYC_SKP Dec 2014 #238

Scientific " faith"is not the same word as used in religious faith, you are confusing yourself. Fred Sanders Dec 2014 #254

Neither are they black and white, nor found exclusive of one another. NYC_SKP Dec 2014 #265

Most who believe Jesus didn't exist aren't scholars. okasha Dec 2014 #148

Thanks. hrmjustin Dec 2014 #159

The correct word should be doesn't. Leontius Dec 2014 #172

He is risen indeed! hrmjustin Dec 2014 #173

This message was self-deleted by its author okasha Dec 2014 #181

There are plenty of genuine scholars who do support his existence. okasha Dec 2014 #183

Your comment about Josephus is completely untrue Trajan Dec 2014 #190

Wrong. okasha Dec 2014 #192

I've read lots of texts that mention Paul Bunyan, SheilaT Dec 2014 #204

Were those history or current affairs books? okasha Dec 2014 #208

There are plenty of history and current affairs books SheilaT Dec 2014 #213

I don't believe that history according to Dan Brown has any professional support. okasha Dec 2014 #242

No, no professional support, SheilaT Dec 2014 #253

And some of them are right here on DU. okasha Dec 2014 #261

OK, this one bit of snark strikes me as funny. riqster Dec 2014 #276

Oddly enough most who believe Jesus did exist aren't scholars either. Warren Stupidity Dec 2014 #235

Not in the least. okasha Dec 2014 #243

This message was self-deleted by its author John1956PA Dec 2014 #245

so your close minded MFM008 Dec 2014 #72

Say what? cleanhippie Dec 2014 #74

What would be evidence for the non-existence of the tooth fairy? Warren Stupidity Dec 2014 #111

isn't that the entire basis of religious belief? Skittles Dec 2014 #252

That's totally already on the record....lol. Iggo Dec 2014 #50

Yes and I said it again. hrmjustin Dec 2014 #51

and again, and again, and again... cleanhippie Dec 2014 #69

Rationally, the burden of proof lies with the people who claim he DID exist. AtheistCrusader Dec 2014 #13

Stop it. Just stop it right now. cleanhippie Dec 2014 #19

Only if they are trying to convince you he was real. hrmjustin Dec 2014 #20

Right. You're only trying to convince yourself. cleanhippie Dec 2014 #24

Well, he is convincing me he has nothing convincing to give me. Faith, of course, can not be proven. Fred Sanders Dec 2014 #255

But you do engage with a 'they' that do not accept that premise, and whom AtheistCrusader Dec 2014 #33

I come to the discussion with one given. i can't prove he existed. hrmjustin Dec 2014 #38

At this moment, there is insufficient data. AtheistCrusader Dec 2014 #43

We cant prove leprechauns dont exist either, but they dont. NoJusticeNoPeace Dec 2014 #53

WHAT ! ! ! ! nichomachus Dec 2014 #64

What became of the gold DonViejo Dec 2014 #106

I have thought about that too edhopper Dec 2014 #114

Not even a card? PassingFair Dec 2014 #201

no MFM008 Dec 2014 #73

Like what? cleanhippie Dec 2014 #76

must have been MFM008 Dec 2014 #80

Can't say since you won't tell me. cleanhippie Dec 2014 #83

So that's it? Just a "well I had this experience once, so there"? cleanhippie Dec 2014 #160

Only one side *requires* proof. The side making an extraordinary claim. AtheistCrusader Dec 2014 #117

Come on AC, he had some sort of "profound experience" so... cleanhippie Dec 2014 #161

How many specific, individual people from 1st century Palestine could be "proven"... YoungDemCA Dec 2014 #91

lots may have existed. AtheistCrusader Dec 2014 #121

Very scary way of thinking. phil89 Dec 2014 #10

Your scared by my faith? hrmjustin Dec 2014 #12

Inconvenienced by the general existence of it. AtheistCrusader Dec 2014 #14

That is not what I asked and I am not responsible in anyway shape ot form by the litany you just hrmjustin Dec 2014 #17

Au contraire. AtheistCrusader Dec 2014 #32

Let me put it another way, because that last paragraph I just wrote is probably difficult to parse. AtheistCrusader Dec 2014 #168

I understand. hrmjustin Dec 2014 #170

I don't think you do. cleanhippie Dec 2014 #216

Thats nice. hrmjustin Dec 2014 #217

It's not nice, it's dishonest and unfortunate. cleanhippie Dec 2014 #218

Your calling me a liar? hrmjustin Dec 2014 #219

No. cleanhippie Dec 2014 #220

Your complaining because I gave a short response? hrmjustin Dec 2014 #221

I'm not complaining, I'm commenting. cleanhippie Dec 2014 #222

Sounds more like complaining to me. hrmjustin Dec 2014 #223

Of course it does. If you understood, you would know the difference. cleanhippie Dec 2014 #224

Gee I was going to say the same to you. hrmjustin Dec 2014 #225

You would've if you actually understood. cleanhippie Dec 2014 #226

Good bye cleanhippie. hrmjustin Dec 2014 #227

Cya, Justin. cleanhippie Dec 2014 #228

Self delete. Feral Child Dec 2014 #56

Well at least your honest. Wrong but honest. hrmjustin Dec 2014 #58

You're gloating is premature. Feral Child Dec 2014 #162

Why are you trying to bait me? i did not alert on your post nor am I going to. hrmjustin Dec 2014 #164

I'm baiting *you*? Feral Child Dec 2014 #196

Hang back and alert, maybe you'll get lucky. hrmjustin Dec 2014 #203

Not bait. Feral Child Dec 2014 #206

No thank you. hrmjustin Dec 2014 #207

You should consider revising and reposting this as it's own OP. cleanhippie Dec 2014 #71

at one time MFM008 Dec 2014 #78

They are scared of your faith. Leontius Dec 2014 #95

This is an interesting point. hrmjustin Dec 2014 #100

How utterly offensive Heddi Dec 2014 #107

If it offends you I am sorry but it is a reasonable question. hrmjustin Dec 2014 #110

You're not sorry, and it's not a reasonable question Heddi Dec 2014 #116

My point was I wonder how many Atheists here wished they had faith. hrmjustin Dec 2014 #118

I'll be sure to remind you of your words Heddi Dec 2014 #125

Goodbye Heddi! hrmjustin Dec 2014 #127

They are jealous of the atheist lack of faith and belief only in science and facts that can be Fred Sanders Dec 2014 #257

I wonder if they're jealous of my freedom from the fear of the eternity Heddi Dec 2014 #258

Yes. Not having to think about the many versions of Hell is a relief they do not have. Fred Sanders Dec 2014 #259

And the best part Heddi Dec 2014 #260

I think about hell almost as much as I value your opinion. Leontius Dec 2014 #264

How Christian of you. Fred Sanders Dec 2014 #266

If by chance someone who read it is an idiot they can ask for an explaination. Leontius Dec 2014 #267

You're better than that, Justin. Goblinmonger Dec 2014 #123

I never said you did and I don't have a bad opinion of atheists. hrmjustin Dec 2014 #124

No, you just agreed that we were jealous of your faith Heddi Dec 2014 #128

keep going if you like. for the record I hope no one alerts on you. hrmjustin Dec 2014 #130

No, you keep going, Justin. cleanhippie Dec 2014 #144

Please go reread the post that you replied to with "good point." Goblinmonger Dec 2014 #129

Well you have the right to take it how you want but I never meant all of you. hrmjustin Dec 2014 #134

That's just not true, Leontius. Feral Child Dec 2014 #103

You forgot edhopper Dec 2014 #115

No I didn't Leontius Dec 2014 #119

You did use whom correctly. Goblinmonger Dec 2014 #126

There is a group that posts here a lot that I feel are perfectly defined Leontius Dec 2014 #133

It's backpedaling. rug Dec 2014 #136

I'm sure he feels I'm doing both. Leontius Dec 2014 #139

If it can't be rebutted, they make up some shit and rebut that. rug Dec 2014 #142

Holy shit, dude. That's a lot of offensive bullshit to put in one post. Goblinmonger Dec 2014 #122

Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahaha! cleanhippie Dec 2014 #145

The amount of knowledge and truth in your post is up to it's standard level Leontius Dec 2014 #166

Careful you're projecting again. cleanhippie Dec 2014 #175

Your courage has been seen and measured here in this thread Leontius Dec 2014 #263

Says the oh-so-brave keyboard warrior. cleanhippie Dec 2014 #270

jury results RussBLib Dec 2014 #271

Yes! That must be it! PassingFair Dec 2014 #244

You might want to read the story of Isis, Osiris and Horus WhiteTara Dec 2014 #2

Shhhhhhhh. Every time that gets brought up around here... cleanhippie Dec 2014 #4

For the story about his "resurrection" you might enjoy WhiteTara Dec 2014 #40

Has nothing to do with the Jesus narrative. cleanhippie Dec 2014 #41

not coincidence...several centuries before WhiteTara Dec 2014 #138

I didn't think I needed the sarcasm tag. cleanhippie Dec 2014 #141

you didn't WhiteTara Dec 2014 #143

Oh, ok. cleanhippie Dec 2014 #147

No, No, No! WhiteTara Dec 2014 #149

No worries. cleanhippie Dec 2014 #150

Uh, no, it doesn't. okasha Dec 2014 #154

Created flame bait? Warren Stupidity Dec 2014 #9

Sorry. cleanhippie Dec 2014 #21

LMAO n/t trotsky Dec 2014 #31

Oh yeah? bvf Dec 2014 #16

You rascal! Feral Child Dec 2014 #28

See Frontline, from Jesus to Christ, elleng Dec 2014 #29

Summary, please? cleanhippie Dec 2014 #45

Lengthy history, elleng Dec 2014 #55

Have you seen this or is it a new series? cleanhippie Dec 2014 #67

It was first broadcast on PBS some time ago ... Trajan Dec 2014 #81

What was the conclusion? cleanhippie Dec 2014 #84

They were not looking to answer the question posed in the OP, elleng Dec 2014 #101

Ahh, more of a 'this is how the story came to be' type of a thing? cleanhippie Dec 2014 #104

Yes, as historians. elleng Dec 2014 #112

Cool, thanks. I'll check it out. cleanhippie Dec 2014 #137

I agree, says this agnostic. elleng Dec 2014 #98

Saw much of Part 1 last night, elleng Dec 2014 #97

I believe it's available on pbs.org choie Dec 2014 #120

Probably is and yes, elleng Dec 2014 #135

That far back it is difficult to find evidence that a king really existed Drale Dec 2014 #30

Well gosh there is plenty of evidence for all sorts of actual human beings. Warren Stupidity Dec 2014 #35

The Romans were actually very meticulous record keepers. cleanhippie Dec 2014 #37

Perhaps that lack of Roman documentation was deliberate on their part YoungDemCA Dec 2014 #82

I'm sure that's it. cleanhippie Dec 2014 #85

True. edhopper Dec 2014 #89

No one knows. Kirk Douglas to the contrary. okasha Dec 2014 #155

Give us a link to the Roman records in their occupation of Judea and Galilee kwassa Dec 2014 #197

The Romans executed many tens of thousands of criminals and politically dangerous folk. thucythucy Dec 2014 #211

If, 2000 years from now, a large portion of the planets worships me as a god cleanhippie Dec 2014 #214

harry potter has 7 books about him, therefore he is 7X more likely to be real nt msongs Dec 2014 #34

That would stand to reason. cleanhippie Dec 2014 #39

This right here is the key, I think: trotsky Dec 2014 #36

Every work of history written by eyewitnesses or not is biased so there is no Leontius Dec 2014 #240

Maybe he didn't walk the earth Sanity Claws Dec 2014 #42

There was a book I read edhopper Dec 2014 #44

Probably just like they react to ANYTHING contrary to their belief. cleanhippie Dec 2014 #48

Are you talking about the Gospel of Judas? hrmjustin Dec 2014 #49

No edhopper Dec 2014 #61

Like this miracle? PassingFair Dec 2014 #247

with all due respect DonCoquixote Dec 2014 #46

There are better examples, I think. Act_of_Reparation Dec 2014 #57

oh indeed DonCoquixote Dec 2014 #63

To answer that question, I would look at Joseph Smith. Act_of_Reparation Dec 2014 #68

I like this post YoungDemCA Dec 2014 #88

"No, they did not find Hector or Helen" - nobody is questioning that Jerusalem exists. Warren Stupidity Dec 2014 #62

true, although DonCoquixote Dec 2014 #66

Some people will never believe any evidence of nonexistence Politicalboi Dec 2014 #47

But you get why they would believe such obvious nonsense, right? NoJusticeNoPeace Dec 2014 #54

Those people you speak of bvf Dec 2014 #59

Wrong. okasha Dec 2014 #158

4 possibilities zipplewrath Dec 2014 #60

What is a "a professionally secular PhD researcher"? rug Dec 2014 #70

I don't believe he earned a legitimate PhD. Maybe it's an honorary PhD from www.bullshit.net NYC_SKP Dec 2014 #93

Are you saying that WaPo published an article with a fake author holding fake credentials? cleanhippie Dec 2014 #94

What, you think it's the first time? NYC_SKP Dec 2014 #96

. hrmjustin Dec 2014 #99

Wow, just wow. cleanhippie Dec 2014 #109

Is that a yes? cleanhippie Dec 2014 #102

Yes. That's a yes. Phony and shit for brains dude has a page at University of G'Day! NYC_SKP Dec 2014 #113

From what I see (links provided in previous post) his PhD paper is there for you to read. cleanhippie Dec 2014 #140

Does the University of Sydney call its PhDs Mister? rug Dec 2014 #132

I've found exclusive footage of Dr. Lataster in his office at the UoS!!! NYC_SKP Dec 2014 #165

Are you using Bing or something? Google returned these results... cleanhippie Dec 2014 #108

The vast majority of reputed historians and scholars from related disciplines disagree YoungDemCA Dec 2014 #77

A very good article. Act_of_Reparation Dec 2014 #157

Thanks for the links. I hadn't seen that. Great, objective writing from a real academic. NYC_SKP Dec 2014 #167

Self delete Feral Child Dec 2014 #90

I'm not familiar with the post you are talking about, so I cannot comment on that. cleanhippie Dec 2014 #92

"...shrouded in controversy..." Mike Nelson Dec 2014 #105

I know, right? Next month: Did Historical Buddha Really Exist?". Professional Whacks say "Derp". NYC_SKP Dec 2014 #131

Too funny. Your original premise that he is a fake author was debunked cleanhippie Dec 2014 #146

=:-) Your characterization of my claims is wrong. I didn't say he wasn't a real author. NYC_SKP Dec 2014 #151

Are you not seeing his paper and credentials on the UofS website? cleanhippie Dec 2014 #152

You poor thing! I looked at each link. No mention of his "PhD". So he's an author. Duh. NYC_SKP Dec 2014 #163

Here ya go, pumpkin. cleanhippie Dec 2014 #174

Bravo. He hasn't earned his PhD. Game. Set. Match. You Lose. NYC_SKP Dec 2014 #177

This message was self-deleted by its author cleanhippie Dec 2014 #179

I just realized that all this hubabaloo is due to your abject failure at reading comprehension. cleanhippie Dec 2014 #185

It's just how he rolls. Leontius Dec 2014 #153

This message was self-deleted by its author cleanhippie Dec 2014 #156

Who knows but we all know that Santa did. jwirr Dec 2014 #176

Will this thread be locked too? I see some emotional posts here. Warren Stupidity Dec 2014 #178

If you can keep your head when all about you rug Dec 2014 #180

The OP is legit, even if the author of the article doesn't hold a PhD but others insist he does. NYC_SKP Dec 2014 #182

The only one ever insisting that he was a fake one was you. Look at your response to rug cleanhippie Dec 2014 #187

His personal website says he's a PhD researcher. That is a lie, and he is a liar wannabe. NYC_SKP Dec 2014 #188

Nice try, skippy, but this ain't about me. cleanhippie Dec 2014 #191

Probably, since it's about the historical jesus, not the religious one. cleanhippie Dec 2014 #186

I don't know if Jesus walked the Earth or not. nilesobek Dec 2014 #184

Jesus is not God. Like Mohammed and Buddha, Jesus was a historic mortal human being. NYC_SKP Dec 2014 #189

You are absolutely incorrect. mr blur Dec 2014 #194

The other two dudes never claim to be the Son of God, or divine, only one is literally God. Fred Sanders Dec 2014 #262

This topic is becoming a real holiday tradition of anti-Christians goldent Dec 2014 #193

It is our own DU War on Christmas! Right here, pull up a chair. kwassa Dec 2014 #199

For sure, I always get a kick out of it. goldent Dec 2014 #249

Discussing whether the basis for the largest religion in the world is real Goblinmonger Dec 2014 #200

No, but if you follow the links and read the material goldent Dec 2014 #248

"Anti-Christians". Lol cleanhippie Dec 2014 #205

Well, the arguments I found in following the links need goldent Dec 2014 #250

Ok and why would that be a problem? Warren Stupidity Dec 2014 #236

I welcome this kind of stuff in the Religion forum goldent Dec 2014 #246

There is no proof of the existence of the vast majority of human beings thucythucy Dec 2014 #210

And yet only one particular person is worshiped as a god. cleanhippie Dec 2014 #215

Not particularly. thucythucy Dec 2014 #239

"The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence." - Carl Sagan kwassa Dec 2014 #256

Wait - If Jesus didn't exist, then who spoke the words in red in the Bible? yellowcanine Dec 2014 #229

First Thesalonians, dated to 51 or 52 CE by internal evidence Agnosticsherbet Dec 2014 #232

I'm an agnostic, but I believe that some person named Yeshua probably existed. Xithras Dec 2014 #251

I don't know that it matters now Prophet 451 Dec 2014 #272

Though what they believe is important, edhopper Dec 2014 #273

Perhaps Prophet 451 Dec 2014 #274

I don't buy the belief=love tautology edhopper Dec 2014 #275

Not a tautology Prophet 451 Dec 2014 #279

I am sure the experience feels very real edhopper Dec 2014 #282

Let me put it this way Prophet 451 Dec 2014 #283

I don't think you are crazy or delusional or anything like that edhopper Dec 2014 #284

I find it offensive Rye Bread Pizza Dec 2014 #277

. cleanhippie Dec 2014 #281

I find it offensive edhopper Dec 2014 #285

It would have to be more like three months, now. Mariana Dec 2014 #286

That's funny. DavidDvorkin Dec 2014 #287

There isn't much collaborative evidence mmonk Dec 2014 #288