Religion

TreasonousBastard

(43,049 posts)

187. Tempted Jesus, I guess, but...

Thu Dec 18, 2014, 11:54 PM

Dec 2014

that was all part of the plan. Jesus, unlike Eve, couldn't be tempted.

But, that doesn't make Eve a worse person than Jesus-- she was created in perfect innocence and knowledge seemed like a great gift at the time. And it was. Jesus knew what was up and being given a king-o-the-world crown wasn't in the plan.

I can't speak for Judaism, which is where this all started, but Christianity has never been comfortable with a concept of duality-- good is meaningless without evil, and so they are coequal. Yin and Yang. Satan was an archangel who went bad, and never an equal to God, so Christian mythology can never fully accept Satan as an equal.

A duality was hinted at in Genesis, and to some extent in Milton, and shows up in some Christian writings, but just never got mainstream. An enormous mythology about the second creation, descent into hell, and other things derived from a couple of OT verses changed Satan from a mild antagonist to God (the protagonist) to the sworn enemy of God and all that is good.

Some bad horror movies haven't helped the situation. Nor did Dante.

The OT doesn't have name for hell, as far as I know, and Satan doesn't seem to have much to do in the OT, except for Job and a few other morality tales, so I'll wait for a rabbi to show up and explain more about that.

Myself, I go for the duality-- if there is a god, there must be a devil or there is stasis and no point to being God. Movement and change is the result of two opposing forces. Maybe more, but at least two.

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What is the baddest, most evil thing Satan/Lucifer/the devil has ever done in the Bible? [View all] DetlefK Dec 2014 OP

Ask a question he couldn't answer himself. rug Dec 2014 #1

Ask a question he couldn't answer himself. AlbertCat Dec 2014 #178

If I were claiming to be equal to God and I wasn't sure if the man in the desert was God, rug Dec 2014 #181

hmmmm Locrian Dec 2014 #2

"That's that other dude" made me laugh out loud . . . brush Dec 2014 #3

May I point out that Lucifer never threatened to strike anybody with a bolt of lightening BlueStreak Dec 2014 #202

No no no . . . something went over somebody's head brush Dec 2014 #203

Yes. I'm simply pointing out that Satan don't roll that way BlueStreak Dec 2014 #205

and don't forget the plagues... n/t 2naSalit Dec 2014 #72

he talked a couple of employees into munching on some produce virtualobserver Dec 2014 #4

LOL The Velveteen Ocelot Dec 2014 #66

Lol! CrispyQ Dec 2014 #106

Created the Bush family LiberalArkie Dec 2014 #5

Wow. They ARE a dynasty. DetlefK Dec 2014 #7

Gave humanity the gift of knowledge of good and evil? (nt) LostOne4Ever Dec 2014 #6

From the most common Christian perspective, yep. trotsky Dec 2014 #8

+INFINITY! LostOne4Ever Dec 2014 #9

LOL, agreed! n/t trotsky Dec 2014 #12

Yes! LOL! n/t. bvf Dec 2014 #13

I don't think Yahweh impregnated Mary against her will, but without her consent Warren Stupidity Dec 2014 #10

Your ignorance is showing. rug Dec 2014 #53

Your ignorance is showing. AlbertCat Dec 2014 #179

Or who the main character is in MacBeth. rug Dec 2014 #180

Or who the main character is in MacBeth. AlbertCat Dec 2014 #189

No, only for literate people. rug Dec 2014 #193

As there is only one deity allegedly, at least in the Abrahamic religions, Warren Stupidity Dec 2014 #11

Do you atually believe Satan claimed to be a god? rug Dec 2014 #57

In practice, Christianity isn't monotheistic cpwm17 Dec 2014 #102

That is a gross misunderstanding of the Trinity. rug Dec 2014 #138

Christians themselves don't consider them gods or separate gods cpwm17 Dec 2014 #140

Read the opening of the gospel of John. okasha Dec 2014 #152

You are really wrong here. rug Dec 2014 #153

Read "The Deathbird" by Harlan Ellison exboyfil Dec 2014 #14

Jahwe conducted the experiment on Job to prove his point to Lucifer. DetlefK Dec 2014 #15

Best thread so far today. Scuba Dec 2014 #16

Created flame bait? cbayer Dec 2014 #17

It's actually an interesting theological question. Which is precisely why you are here to deflect. AtheistCrusader Dec 2014 #18

it is amazing. I'm sure she will be admonished very soon now for her behavior. Warren Stupidity Dec 2014 #37

Nope, I wanted some actual examples of evil things. DetlefK Dec 2014 #19

And I think this is nothing but flame bait. cbayer Dec 2014 #20

Are you trying to avoid answering the question? DetlefK Dec 2014 #23

You seriously are trying to understand this? Seriously? cbayer Dec 2014 #25

Okay, last attempt: DetlefK Dec 2014 #42

In the abrahamic tradition, god is the source of all evil. AtheistCrusader Dec 2014 #47

And where can I find those 10? DetlefK Dec 2014 #75

The book of job. AtheistCrusader Dec 2014 #78

Now you are being completely disingenuous. cbayer Dec 2014 #48

You should be able to answer it and he'd accept it, then. Goblinmonger Dec 2014 #55

Every time someone new comes in here with a negative view of religion, she tries to badger them out AtheistCrusader Dec 2014 #71

Nice collection of links. trotsky Dec 2014 #77

Bullies will be bullies. cleanhippie Dec 2014 #101

I don't have an answer for him. cbayer Dec 2014 #76

I'm thinking you really never read Job. Warren Stupidity Dec 2014 #127

Also, don't let Cbayer bully you out of here. You asked a good question. AtheistCrusader Dec 2014 #51

According to this theory edhopper Dec 2014 #29

Fallback position #1 for me. AtheistCrusader Dec 2014 #50

YouGov Poll Says Nearly 60% of Americans Believe the Devil is Real trotsky Dec 2014 #41

"Gallup found that "belief in the devil has increased from 55% in 1990 to 70% in 2004." 2naSalit Dec 2014 #83

You never covered Job? Goblinmonger Dec 2014 #44

Job is actually one of my favorite stories. cbayer Dec 2014 #52

I'm trying to react to this as calmly as possible. Goblinmonger Dec 2014 #59

ooops Warren Stupidity Dec 2014 #62

We had a very large thread on this a year ago or so. AtheistCrusader Dec 2014 #74

Don't hurt yourself. cbayer Dec 2014 #81

"Don't hurt yourself" and again the odd veiled threat shows up. Warren Stupidity Dec 2014 #95

While at the same time berating another for "not being civil" cleanhippie Dec 2014 #112

Poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe poe AtheistCrusader Dec 2014 #119

ha! cleanhippie Dec 2014 #124

That's essentially the use of it, as found in this forum of late. AtheistCrusader Dec 2014 #125

Correct, it's a word that is thrown out... trotsky Dec 2014 #126

It is a misuse. "A Poe" is a thing only here. Warren Stupidity Dec 2014 #128

You might want to reread phil89 Dec 2014 #104

I might just reread it. cbayer Dec 2014 #111

There's hope unless you're one of job's kids, or servants. AtheistCrusader Dec 2014 #123

No it is a story of hope and redemption! Warren Stupidity Dec 2014 #133

"Don't imagine you can understand or make sense of what it happening to you." Warren Stupidity Dec 2014 #134

He tells people edhopper Dec 2014 #21

Yeah, that's the ticket. God is just like Nixon and the devil is just like Dawkins. cbayer Dec 2014 #22

No edhopper Dec 2014 #24

Er, I tend to think their position is that if it was wrong, it wasn't god. cbayer Dec 2014 #26

You are mistaking what I am saying edhopper Dec 2014 #27

Yeah, it's the rather persistent lack of delineation that I keep pointing out. cbayer Dec 2014 #39

I think I was pretty clear from the beginning edhopper Dec 2014 #43

You are right. My agenda is to find commonalities instead of differences cbayer Dec 2014 #58

Fine edhopper Dec 2014 #60

Perfect then. A lot of your "discussions" seem to be with me. cbayer Dec 2014 #86

True edhopper Dec 2014 #88

She's also got several of us on ignore. Narrows the field a bit. AtheistCrusader Dec 2014 #94

I am indeed very interested in your views on religion. cbayer Dec 2014 #97

"are you related to the OP? You have similar styles." trotsky Dec 2014 #33

I'm sure a host will be along to tell you that isn't cool. Goblinmonger Dec 2014 #45

Shitty, and a wildly unnecessary thing to have in this venue. AtheistCrusader Dec 2014 #54

What is it with you guys and your taking pretty much everything I say and distorting it. cbayer Dec 2014 #73

"It was, at worst, tongue in cheek" - so at worst you were just Warren Stupidity Dec 2014 #93

'*if* I offended anyone, I (non-apology)...' AtheistCrusader Dec 2014 #98

WTF? trotsky Dec 2014 #32

Apparantly the whole problem of the evil twin god of christianity Warren Stupidity Dec 2014 #38

Clearly a nerve was touched, to use one of her favorite phrases. trotsky Dec 2014 #40

Well, to be fair, that about sums up the entire Christian response to that question cleanhippie Dec 2014 #61

Agreed. trotsky Dec 2014 #69

Well, in a way they did die-- they lost their innocence. TreasonousBastard Dec 2014 #183

WTF - self referential irony much? Warren Stupidity Dec 2014 #28

You might want to come in here without guns blazing. Goblinmonger Dec 2014 #49

Saying "created flame bait" is guns blazing? Say, you're not the one who alerted on cbayer Dec 2014 #68

No, that's not something I would alert on because I know it wouldn't succeed. Goblinmonger Dec 2014 #70

You assume that I am too stupid to see this for exactly what it is. cbayer Dec 2014 #84

Call me a liar all you want. Goblinmonger Dec 2014 #90

Another gross distortion. I didn't call you a liar at all, I just noted that the wording was cbayer Dec 2014 #103

well yes you did, but whatever. Warren Stupidity Dec 2014 #110

You're right about one thing. There IS too much at stake. trotsky Dec 2014 #113

Endlessly entertaining though.... PassingFair Dec 2014 #192

"Don't nanny me" - seriously? Warren Stupidity Dec 2014 #92

This is a great question. I Rainforestgoddess Dec 2014 #30

Very interesting question. nichomachus Dec 2014 #31

he acts up in d_r Dec 2014 #34

oh d_r Dec 2014 #35

"non serviam" Man from Pickens Dec 2014 #36

+1 rug Dec 2014 #63

I'll answer this again edhopper Dec 2014 #46

Thanks. DetlefK Dec 2014 #80

Wow, for an atheist you sure do have some really clear ideas about what cbayer Dec 2014 #87

Some Christians edhopper Dec 2014 #89

Not interested on what is on youtube. cbayer Dec 2014 #107

I was giving the OP edhopper Dec 2014 #114

Nowhere in there did he say all Christians. Goblinmonger Dec 2014 #99

Read it again. I know it's hard to try and read what I say without finding cbayer Dec 2014 #108

And though I explained that edhopper Dec 2014 #115

Yeah, the satan stories have some of that theme - he's hurt, overlooked, scorned and reacts. pinto Dec 2014 #120

He's like a wounded child, something we are all familiar with, I am sure. cbayer Dec 2014 #122

Correction. bvf Dec 2014 #182

Read the book. okasha Dec 2014 #56

So just read the Bible edhopper Dec 2014 #64

As a retired teacher with instincts still intact, okasha Dec 2014 #79

So you think edhopper Dec 2014 #85

He can use a concordance. okasha Dec 2014 #91

Now that is a productive answer edhopper Dec 2014 #116

And as a teacher who's students have read the assignment and ask questions notadmblnd Dec 2014 #121

Open class discussion on the subject. okasha Dec 2014 #154

where questions would be allowed? notadmblnd Dec 2014 #155

How would you have a discussion okasha Dec 2014 #156

So, peers answered your former students questions during class discussions, and your role was? notadmblnd Dec 2014 #157

My students were adults. okasha Dec 2014 #161

Hopefully your responses to your former adult students notadmblnd Dec 2014 #165

"Some of the people here" okasha Dec 2014 #168

This message was self-deleted by its author notadmblnd Dec 2014 #194

What's that thing in the Bible about not judging? notadmblnd Dec 2014 #195

Sorry. I'm neither Christian or Jewish. okasha Dec 2014 #207

This message was self-deleted by its author notadmblnd Dec 2014 #208

Totally. Just did that today in class. Goblinmonger Dec 2014 #148

But there are so many websites with ready-made lists. rug Dec 2014 #65

Why do you even come on a discussion board, then? Goblinmonger Dec 2014 #67

Just want to say I hope our local satanist posts with his views on this. LostOne4Ever Dec 2014 #82

That would be Prophet451 and I would also like to hear what he has to say. cbayer Dec 2014 #129

Yeah, because none of the rest of us could read a fucking book. AtheistCrusader Dec 2014 #137

There are quite a number of games and anime with plots similar to that LostOne4Ever Dec 2014 #159

I am going to watch the rest of it tonight. cbayer Dec 2014 #162

The Narrow Way/Path, the Tao is the Healing Path. Always do which is conducive to healing. Dont call me Shirley Dec 2014 #174

But what if that was all propaganda? LostOne4Ever Dec 2014 #176

Speaking from personal experience, the healing path (whatever it is called), the path of kindness, Dont call me Shirley Dec 2014 #177

I have to say the massive diversion in this thread is the best part. Warren Stupidity Dec 2014 #96

Shit flinging rage monkey Goblinmonger Dec 2014 #105

That's good! I saved it... TreasonousBastard Dec 2014 #184

In the Latin tellings of the tale - Pride pinto Dec 2014 #100

I am learning quite a lot here. cbayer Dec 2014 #117

I love that you're pretending to just now discover the Satan character. cleanhippie Dec 2014 #130

Well, she didn't know who Shaggy was, either. Goblinmonger Dec 2014 #131

Wha? Didn't know who Shaggy was? cleanhippie Dec 2014 #132

Yeah Goblinmonger Dec 2014 #135

That's an interesting, although one-dimensional, idea... TreasonousBastard Dec 2014 #186

Per a song WovenGems Dec 2014 #109

I think this is a great question for this group, and I'm sorry someone tried (is trying) so hard to Heddi Dec 2014 #118

He was 'round when Jesus Christ had his moment of doubt and pain. iscooterliberally Dec 2014 #136

LOL. I give up... pinto Dec 2014 #139

This was a great discussion until Cbayer decided, unilaterally, that it was flamebait Heddi Dec 2014 #142

As usual Heddi, you nailed it again. cleanhippie Dec 2014 #143

I'm sorry, but her actions in this thread are bullshit Heddi Dec 2014 #144

I am going to offer my apologies to you. cbayer Dec 2014 #141

This is great to see from you. I think it will help. trotsky Dec 2014 #145

key word "may" Heddi Dec 2014 #146

" I may have jumped the gun" is a non apology. Warren Stupidity Dec 2014 #147

Well speaking for all atheists edhopper Dec 2014 #149

Oh, ed. trotsky Dec 2014 #150

Well played�. cbayer Dec 2014 #151

You were far from apologizing to the OP Heddi Dec 2014 #158

Forget it. Everything's fine. :D DetlefK Dec 2014 #197

Got a call from mash up central. What's the score? pinto Dec 2014 #160

It's a tie and we may have to go into overtime. cbayer Dec 2014 #163

Consensus of the Group's hosts. We're locking this. pinto Dec 2014 #164

And we are back. Warren Stupidity Dec 2014 #166

Hahahahahahahahahahaha! cleanhippie Dec 2014 #167

This message was self-deleted by its author darkangel218 Dec 2014 #169

What are you talking about? cleanhippie Dec 2014 #171

Not sure. Were you agreeing with the OP? darkangel218 Dec 2014 #172

I consider satan to be more the lawyer accuser type. hrmjustin Dec 2014 #170

This thread got me to thinking about a Cheers episode goldent Dec 2014 #173

Since this doesn't seem to have been covered, Satan is in the apocryphal books too muriel_volestrangler Dec 2014 #175

Other than falling from the grace of God? Depaysement Dec 2014 #185

Tempted Jesus, I guess, but... TreasonousBastard Dec 2014 #187

Obviously the Pickle Surprise Heddi Dec 2014 #188

I think it is a mistake... Act_of_Reparation Dec 2014 #190

Fine, still we have a mountain of outright evil attributed to Yahweh and Warren Stupidity Dec 2014 #191

Jeffrey Burton Russell is a historian of ideas. okasha Dec 2014 #206

Satan's worst sin is not obeying god Prophet 451 Dec 2014 #196

I am glad you weighed on this. I was hoping you would cbayer Dec 2014 #199

Glad to enlighten :) Prophet 451 Dec 2014 #200

Neither God nor Satan do anything evil in the Christian Holy Bible. ZombieHorde Dec 2014 #198

I would suggest he had a hand in the latest interpretations. randr Dec 2014 #201

Here are some sites that have been keeping score BlueStreak Dec 2014 #204