Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News Editorials & Other Articles General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

Sweeney

(505 posts)
48. It took a long time for any in the West to reach China.
Wed Dec 24, 2014, 02:00 PM
Dec 2014

And after the travels of Marco Polo, as he lay in bed dying, the priests urged him to recant all of his lies about the East. He told them: You haven't heard the half of it. Consider what was happening in this world in that period of time. The Russ, the Scandinavians in Russia had been pulverized by the Turks, and turkic tribes under Muslims first and then the Iron limper, Tamerlane the Great.

The Mongols had been driven from the gates of Egypt by the possessed ones, The Mukluks, and up into Central Asia. By that time all the Mongols in the former Muslim regions had converted to Islam, and this was common because the Mongols had no common Deity, and allowed religious liberty. So, even while the areas were heavily invested by Mongol tribes, they had for the most part established themselves, and taken on civilization. This was very true of Kubaiai Khan. Their last Chinese victories were for the most part bloodless. The far flung empire of the khans was held together by tribute and post roads, and these were followed right into China.

Trade in silks and spices, exactly that which broke the Roman Empire was also the point of Marco Polo. And it was an eye opener for the West. You forgot paper money, as many people do, but this was the Wests first experience with mechanical printing.
Gun powder was of great value as an invention, and mostly because in Europe people were already using blow guns to take out small birds and were looking for a better source of power. Again; it is the mixing of cultures at work that made the West what it became.

I will say again that the Mongols and their empire had little direct effect on us until very late. They could have swept through Europe and did not. They held on for a time in some places, but their area of control quickly receded. It made room for the Otheman Empire. And Tamerlane Beat the Golden Ordu, (horde) out of Russia, which the Russian Autocrats soon owned. Same in China, where a popular revolt soon pushed them out.

The influence of Muslim Spain is very far reaching, but again, rhymed verse and singing were well established by the time there was significant communication. Feudalism as practiced in Europe did not have more than limited exchange of goods or even information. Mark Bloch in his volumes on Feudalism noted how long after the fact one king learned of the conversion of the Swedish King to Christianity. Consider the remarkable sea journeys of the vikings, down the rivers of Russia, through the Mediterranean, and in the Atlantic. Try to understand how remarkable these were to a people who had nearly lost the art of ship building. The trip from France to England after the Romans and before the Norse was incredibly perilous. Land transportation was even worse. The old Roman roads that led, naturally to Rome were the conduit of culture, and in that sense, Christian rhymed music was well established before there was significant trade and communication with Spain. Now; Correct me if I am wrong, but we did get the guitar from them and perhaps the troubadours. We may have gotten the idea of courtly love from them. What we most wanted and took from them waited nearly on the fall of the country into Christian hands, and that was their math and astronomy. Free free to prove me wrong.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

All that effort just to tell people to go visit their local library? Hoppy Dec 2014 #1
Effort ??? SamKnause Dec 2014 #3
Ya think singing like that is easy? Hoppy Dec 2014 #6
Every time I try, a bunch of male water buffalo come pawing at my front yard. AtheistCrusader Dec 2014 #10
Nostalgia time. okasha Dec 2014 #2
I was just telling my brother SamKnause Dec 2014 #4
I wish I could stand it. Sweeney Dec 2014 #7
Blue Man Group does a version of this song live, with Tracy Bonham on vocals. AtheistCrusader Dec 2014 #11
That's an interesting cover, I like it Fumesucker Dec 2014 #13
Wow, that was really good. AtheistCrusader Dec 2014 #16
The Voice That Launched 1000 Trips... likesmountains 52 Dec 2014 #5
Saw her live once, with starship Sweeney Dec 2014 #8
She had gone to Finch College with Nixon's daughter. rug Dec 2014 #14
She had gone to Finch Gollege with Nixon's daughter Sweeney Dec 2014 #21
Wait, you thought it appropriate to lock a thread about Satan in this venue as off topic AtheistCrusader Dec 2014 #9
my guess would be to establish a need for hosts. Warren Stupidity Dec 2014 #15
LOL. Just a goof off post. Thought the theme kinda, sorta fit the group. pinto Dec 2014 #18
My cooking is good for a free trip to the toilet. Sweeney Dec 2014 #22
I thought "feed your head'' was not just about knowledge, but what we use to gain knowledge. YOHABLO Dec 2014 #12
I saw Gracie Slick live only once. It was in Grant Park in Chicago when things cbayer Dec 2014 #17
Never saw her live. Had a chance to once. My aunt and brother were part of the Sausalito scene. pinto Dec 2014 #19
It was a great time in so many ways, particularly the music. cbayer Dec 2014 #20
Did he have extras? Sweeney Dec 2014 #24
Did you walk home rich, or high? Sweeney Dec 2014 #23
Neither rich nor high. cbayer Dec 2014 #30
Been there a few times with wife and children. Sweeney Dec 2014 #40
I find them equally wonderful but very different. cbayer Dec 2014 #41
I am afraid I would. Sweeney Dec 2014 #44
What does this have to do with religion? mr blur Dec 2014 #25
Music and drugs Sweeney Dec 2014 #26
"We would not even have rhymed music with out the influence of Christianity." trotsky Dec 2014 #27
Sorry: Only telling you what did happen. Sweeney Dec 2014 #28
Indeed. trotsky Dec 2014 #29
I can as easily say: Sweeney Dec 2014 #32
Wow, doubling down. trotsky Dec 2014 #33
Consider the percentage in Europe educated by the church. Sweeney Dec 2014 #37
Because, by your "logic," if the church hadn't been there... trotsky Dec 2014 #38
In Europe, and because of Christianity, education languished. Sweeney Dec 2014 #43
Again, you seem very confused about what did happen versus what could have happened. trotsky Dec 2014 #106
It is hard enough to know what happened. Sweeney Dec 2014 #108
That's a lovely piece which does nothing to address what I said. trotsky Dec 2014 #109
Sir; intelligence is insight, and insight is intelligence Sweeney Dec 2014 #114
"if you have it you have it, and if you don't you don't" trotsky Dec 2014 #116
If the conclusion is wrong it should not be hard to disprove. Sweeney Dec 2014 #117
Sorry, that's not how it works. trotsky Dec 2014 #118
I offer evidence and a theory. Sweeney Dec 2014 #119
Your theory is unproven. trotsky Dec 2014 #120
Sir; Atomic theory is unproven. Sweeney Dec 2014 #123
But what atomic theory, evolution, gravity, etc. have that your theory does not... trotsky Dec 2014 #126
Quotation post 102 Sweeney Dec 2014 #127
I am unable to see post 102 on this thread. trotsky Dec 2014 #128
About a third of the way from the bottom? Read me? Sweeney Dec 2014 #129
Interesting. okasha Dec 2014 #131
It is the closest cultural link we have. Sweeney Dec 2014 #132
I have an invisible dragon in my living room. Goblinmonger Dec 2014 #122
Who is trying? Sweeney Dec 2014 #124
Even today many are illiterate. Sweeney Dec 2014 #39
Since it seems to be your argument that without Christianity, we'd all be illiterate... trotsky Dec 2014 #42
You miss my point. Sweeney Dec 2014 #47
You'll get no argument from me that it's "the way in which it happened." trotsky Dec 2014 #105
You do know that rhyming goes back to China about 10 centuries before Christ? Goblinmonger Dec 2014 #31
Tell me first the influence of China on the West. Sweeney Dec 2014 #34
Well, that's a fascinating backpedal. AtheistCrusader Dec 2014 #35
"Tell me first the influence of China on the West." THAT'S YOUR ARGUMENT? Goblinmonger Dec 2014 #46
It took a long time for any in the West to reach China. Sweeney Dec 2014 #48
I will say this of the Arab Poets. Sweeney Dec 2014 #36
I will say this of the Arab poets: Goblinmonger Dec 2014 #45
You see sir; that I can tell you that effect almost to the letter. Sweeney Dec 2014 #49
Yes, they were. okasha Dec 2014 #51
I believe that Muslim Spain had the greatest influence. Sweeney Dec 2014 #66
I agree that there was Andalusian influence, okasha Dec 2014 #73
Aristophanes. Warren Stupidity Dec 2014 #57
All totally irrelevant, okasha Dec 2014 #59
You and your buddy are arguing an untenable point Goblinmonger Dec 2014 #64
Sir; it is not just about the rhyme. Sweeney Dec 2014 #68
I have no idea why you and your buddies okasha Dec 2014 #74
LOL. This thread is hilarious. Starboard Tack Dec 2014 #89
Feliz navidad, ST, okasha Dec 2014 #91
You are entirely welcome to your opinion. Sweeney Dec 2014 #60
"We would not even have rhymed music with out the influence of Christianity" Warren Stupidity Dec 2014 #61
"Very little that was Greek in origin got into the Latin Church" Goblinmonger Dec 2014 #63
Aristophas' rhymes were few and internal. okasha Dec 2014 #75
The Wasp was written in rhymed verse. Warren Stupidity Dec 2014 #77
It's The Wasps, not The Wasp. okasha Dec 2014 #80
Oh I forgot an 's' - ouch, my bad. Warren Stupidity Dec 2014 #84
Ah so there were in fact rhymes, just not the sort your new BFF wants to claim Warren Stupidity Dec 2014 #93
Oh Warren! Starboard Tack Dec 2014 #90
Anyone claiming native americans are "savages" is not a person you should Warren Stupidity Dec 2014 #92
Post removed Post removed Dec 2014 #137
out of my league? Goblinmonger Dec 2014 #138
The important thing is we are objecting to it. Warren Stupidity Dec 2014 #139
So where is the knowledge that rhyme wouldn't have happened without Christianity? Goblinmonger Dec 2014 #94
I'm glad to know that reading a book is superior to actually doing something for a living Lordquinton Dec 2014 #95
Actually; if You read; The Rhyme is the name of a Druid's curse. Sweeney Dec 2014 #99
But that is only half the argument. Goblinmonger Dec 2014 #110
Sir; if you take Poe for an example Sweeney Dec 2014 #112
Hey Tacky, so glad of you to join us! Lordquinton Dec 2014 #96
"Abroad of the subject..." okasha Dec 2014 #97
snicker Sweeney Dec 2014 #100
The transition to Medieval Latin Poetry Sweeney Dec 2014 #102
°So glad of you to join us°? WTF does that mean? Starboard Tack Dec 2014 #136
Glad to know that's the game you are playing. Goblinmonger Dec 2014 #140
Never said they are savages, said they were, and it fits the definition they posted. Sweeney Dec 2014 #98
Niceties like verb tense are simply too complicated for some folk. okasha Dec 2014 #101
I have an Angel Sweeney Dec 2014 #103
You said you grew up around Mohawk native americans Warren Stupidity Dec 2014 #107
Worked with Mohawks and other six nation Iroquois Sweeney Dec 2014 #111
We were all savages at one time or another. Starboard Tack Dec 2014 #121
This message was self-deleted by its author Sweeney Dec 2014 #125
Now you've done it. NYC_SKP Dec 2014 #50
Pointing it's contribution out is fine, and not controversial. AtheistCrusader Dec 2014 #52
I tend to agree that most any innovation would have come about sooner or later. NYC_SKP Dec 2014 #54
Religion is a channel by which humans invest time and effort. AtheistCrusader Dec 2014 #55
There are a lot of dead lakes in history. Sweeney Dec 2014 #69
You might not personally approve of the current sense AtheistCrusader Dec 2014 #79
We have gone through the age of reason and reason has left the stage. Sweeney Dec 2014 #83
That's a lovely wall of text. AtheistCrusader Dec 2014 #87
The problem my friend Sweeney Dec 2014 #88
No SKP it was the assertion that it "would not have happened without christianity" that is bullshit. Warren Stupidity Dec 2014 #62
It is after all, only an assertion. If I am wrong; prove it. Sweeney Dec 2014 #70
It has been amply demonstrated that christianity was not required. nt. Warren Stupidity Dec 2014 #78
What absolute drivel. mr blur Dec 2014 #141
Where? Sweeney Dec 2014 #142
consider post 102 Sweeney Dec 2014 #143
You would have had to be there. To many of us upaloopa Dec 2014 #56
I'd rather eat pure poison than take nostalgia Sweeney Dec 2014 #82
acid indigestion? mitchtv Dec 2014 #53
Electric Hot Tuna!!!!! Cosmic Kitten Dec 2014 #58
Jorma Kaukonen and Janis Joplin Jim__ Dec 2014 #67
That is the only girl Sweeney Dec 2014 #72
This thread is turning into a bad trip. rug Dec 2014 #65
If its drugs you'll get over it. Sweeney Dec 2014 #71
The music posts are great. okasha Dec 2014 #76
Dancing Queen pinto Dec 2014 #81
"Drugs will get you through times of no money... GliderGuider Dec 2014 #85
Furious Freak Brothers Sweeney Dec 2014 #86
Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers, actually. mr blur Dec 2014 #113
Only been over forty years since I loaned mine out. Sweeney Dec 2014 #115
love the music. don't give a damn if it's posted in DesertFlower Dec 2014 #104
jefferson airplane - the woodstock experience wilt the stilt Dec 2014 #130
I really liked Janis Joplin Sweeney Dec 2014 #133
I saw Janis three times, and Airplane once. kwassa Dec 2014 #134
I loved that girl. Sweeney Dec 2014 #135
Latest Discussions»Issue Forums»Religion»Feed your head. (Jefferso...»Reply #48