10 Things I wish the Atheists at DU knew about Theists at DU (at least this one)

[LostOne4Ever]

87. Starting at the top

1. We are firmly in favor of the separation of church and state. It is one of the basic protections for all of us.

[font style="font-family:papyrus,'Brush Script MT','Infindel B',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]Some of you yes. But some of you are so clouded in your own privilege you can't see where believers on DU fall short of the goal. When the pledge was challenged in Court by Newdow they did a poll and 77% of Americans supported the pledge a direct and blatant violation of the wall.

That means that there are a significant number of progressive believers who have no issue with allowing exceptions, especially when its their religion that is getting promoted. Even here on DU you find this:[/font]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014671562
http://www.democraticunderground.com/121888768
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024627996

[font style="font-family:papyrus,'Brush Script MT','Infindel B',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]That said, there are also some atheists who are less than stellar on the wall also. I think anyone who violated this principle should be held accountable.[/font]

2. We believe that it is acceptable to share beliefs and non-beiefs respectfully on DU and elsewhere.

[font style="font-family:papyrus,'Brush Script MT','Infindel B',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]Some of you do, and for those who do I am thankful.

However, even on DU there is religious privilege and people who are anything but respectful. For instance, I don't see why on earth my alert about comparing someone's religion to NAZISM was not a 7-0 hide. [/font]

3. Some of us find Satanic and flying spaghetti displays humorous.

[font style="font-family:papyrus,'Brush Script MT','Infindel B',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]And some of you don't. Here is a couple of threads in which a few posters throughout the thread show they don't share the humor:[/font]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1218173924
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1218130270
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1218127628
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1218111983

4. A few of us were once agnostics or atheists and have since become theists.

[font style="font-family:papyrus,'Brush Script MT','Infindel B',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]And a great many of us (maybe even a majority but i can't say that without evidence) were once theists.[/font]

5. There are far more progressive theists then you realize. Just as the extremely vocal atheist drowned out the ones who are live and let live, so too, are we drowned out by the screaming RWRNJs (right wing religious nut jobs).

[font style="font-family:papyrus,'Brush Script MT','Infindel B',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]The atheists who are not vocal are not all opposed to the vocal ones. Further, the reason they are drowned out is because they are not vocal. Are you really wanting to compare yourself to those who choose to be silent on the issues?

I get that there are progressive theists and I get why you are seldom heard. Lack of media coverage, and you are outnumbered by conservatives in most theist religions here in the USA.

I don't hold that against you. It is when progressive theists waffle on things like the pledge that I get annoyed. And yes, I know that not all of you do it. But there are quite a few of you who do. Again, there would not have been 77% support for "under god" if that were not the case.

If you are standing up for progressive values and the separations of church and state then I have nothing but commendations to heap upon you. It is the others my criticism is focused on.[/font]

6. This theist is not interested in proselytizing or being proselytized.

[font style="font-family:papyrus,'Brush Script MT','Infindel B',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]Very well. Same is true for me.

That said, not all theists or atheists feel the same. Many theists feel as if they are trying to save the souls of others by proselytizing. They do so with the best of intentions. Many atheists feel that religion is ultimately dangerous and harmful to society. They are fighting it with the best of intentions.

Those who don't want to be proselytized are going to be annoyed by one or both of the above.

Further, this is a group whose very purpose is to discuss religion. By coming here you should expect to hear arguments from both sides and have your position questioned harshly. No-one is making you answer anything you don't want to. No-one is making you participate.

If you find you don't like it, then leave the discussion.[/font]

7. Theism is not is not a conservative phenomenon; there are politically liberal theists libertarian theists, and other theists who could not reasonable be described as liberal.

[font style="font-family:papyrus,'Brush Script MT','Infindel B',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]Neither believing there are god, or that there are no gods, is either liberal or conservative. However, many religions have conservative or liberal ideologies written into their foundational texts. These deserve analyse and critique. That said, yes not all adherents believe in those passages or doctrines, but they are still there and need to be challenged.

Again, if you don't believe in those passages, feel free to take a giant permanent marker and remove them from your book, my criticism is not aimed at you. I give you kudos for removing them from your book. But for those who do believe in them or abet those who do are not off the hook.[/font]

8. Theists are not universally homophobic, racists or generally hate filled humans.

[font style="font-family:papyrus,'Brush Script MT','Infindel B',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]Universally? No.

But again many theist religions do have bigotry institutionalized in their books. Books that then pass said prejudice down to their children and their children's children. So long as it is there, so will be the criticism. I will not let homophobia slide.

And again, if you don't believe in those passages or outright removed them then power to you.

I am not trying to broadbrush anyone. But people generalize at times when they critique things. Bill Maher specifically said he was not talking about all muslims, but then proceeded to say muslims in his critique of the middle east and was treated like he was talking about all muslims. Feminist are not criticizing all men in their protests against patriarchy, but that is the way some men take it.

It might help all groups if they tried to understand the context in which a person is talking before getting offended. It might also help if you are critiquing a group that is down the privilege ladder, that you specify that you are not critiquing the whole group.

But doing this seems to be a hassle to too many people and they would rather get outraged over nothing. See the NDT thread on the front page of this group if you want to see more false outrage.[/font]

9. There are good and bad theists just as there are good and bad atheists. This is the human condition. People have been killed in the name of god and in the name of a godless state. To argue that either as the basis of morality is disingenuous at best.

[font style="font-family:papyrus,'Brush Script MT','Infindel B',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]No argument about that from me. Has anyone here on DU done that?

I have not seen such things here with the exception of the guy who said that being a satanist was like admitting to being a nazi to him. I have seen, over and over and over theists in the real world argue that without a belief in god you can't be a moral person though and worse.[/font]

10. Most theists are not interested in denying free speech as it is a fundamental right and protection of all. That said it would be helpful to all if the discussions did not devolve into logical fallacies.

[font style="font-family:papyrus,'Brush Script MT','Infindel B',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]Ehhh, most theists? Blasphamy laws sure seem popular in religious states then for no reason.

I am not going to take a stand one way or the other on "most" till I see hard evidence to support making any statement on most of anything. For example, I can point to this poll and say that a majority of Muslims in Egypt support death for apostates.

You have to give me some evidence before getting me to commit to saying most of anything.

I will say however, there are a great many theists who do have a problem with free speech. The same can probably be said for atheists. To them, I center my accusations. Those who support Blasphemy laws in particular.[/font]

Taken all together I wish that atheists and theists at DU would stop seeing each other as enemies but rather, as people of differing opinions who happen to be fundamentally linked by other perhaps more important things.

[font style="font-family:papyrus,'Brush Script MT','Infindel B',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]For 99% of issues, that is probably the way it is in actuality. But this is the religion group. The major themes we discuss here we disagree on. Sometimes bitterly. The solution is simple if you want to avoid those disagreements, just don't discuss religion or the religious aspects of that debate.

Maybe discussing the legal or civil rights aspect is more your cup of tea? That is always an option here.

But, while some people will declare otherwise, the truth is that they LIKE the

They just won't admit it.[/font]