Religion

cbayer

(146,218 posts)

167. You may challenge me, but it will be meaningless unless you can provide some

Fri Jan 2, 2015, 11:17 AM

Jan 2015

actual data.

Where do you get your information about the nefarious bookkeeping of "most churches"? Your statement that the majority of Americans attend churches that are very wealthy institutions is just plain not accurate and your statement about paying NO taxes shows that you don't really understand the tax status of religious groups.

There are significant problems with IRS enforcement of some churches who are in fact making profits and are involved in political endorsements. I strongly support more IRS oversight.

You are, I guess, talking about the parsonage exemption when you talk about property taxes. This is an exemption for churches that other non-profits do not get. I support that it be revised.

You really need to provide evidence that "churches are by and large a money-making scam". I am betting that you can not and that you are voicing your individual beliefs which are grounded in faith only.

I will give you some data to chew on, because that is how I roll.

Pastors are the lowest paid degreed professionals in the country. Salaries for ministers in this country range from about $24K to $72K. If you include megachurches, the average salary is about $45K. In addition, ministers work incredibly long hours and are generally on-call 24 hours/day. If you remove the highly paid ministers of mega-churches, average salary drops to $28K. One out of five take second jobs in order to make enough money to live.

While there has been a significant growth in megachurches, they are only 0.5% of all the churches in the US, which is no where near what you appear to believe.

http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Minister/Salary
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/christiancrier/2013/12/15/average-pastor-salaries-in-united-states-churches/
http://www.christianpost.com/news/seven-updated-trends-on-megachurches-in-america-81860/

Just to be clear I am a radically opposed to anti-theists, particularly those who can not see any of the positives and present made up facts instead of actual data. I think religion has strong positives as well as strong negatives. I don't watch TV.

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Is it a sin to have more than $400,000 in stocks, money, and not give at least half of it to your [View all] randys1 Dec 2014 OP

Depends on your beliefs. hrmjustin Dec 2014 #1

What would Jesus do? randys1 Dec 2014 #2

He would give it all away. hrmjustin Dec 2014 #4

Jesus had a retirement plan lastlib Dec 2014 #133

Not me, I dont claim to be a christian in one breath and then do or say something terribly randys1 Dec 2014 #137

Since you don't claim to be a christian ever, that's a pretty easy one, cbayer Dec 2014 #139

Ever? I was in catholic school for 11 years, became a born again christian watching randys1 Dec 2014 #141

Sorry, I meant in the present. cbayer Dec 2014 #143

Did you respond to the wrong post? i don't get your response. hrmjustin Dec 2014 #145

What would you do? n/t LTX Dec 2014 #127

IMHO, Jesus would give it all away. cbayer Dec 2014 #3

What does Jesus tell you to do with your wealth? randys1 Dec 2014 #6

Tell who? Are you referring to the stories about Jesus or cbayer Dec 2014 #7

stories randys1 Dec 2014 #8

The stories I was raised with said give it all away. cbayer Dec 2014 #9

So if Jesus commands you do this, why dont you? randys1 Dec 2014 #10

You are asking the wrong person. cbayer Dec 2014 #13

Arent you one of the most outspoken Christians here? randys1 Dec 2014 #15

Er, no, but you are not the first to make very mistaken assumptions about me. cbayer Dec 2014 #17

Could have sworn I see you comment on everything religion, arent you a devout christian? randys1 Dec 2014 #23

I'm not a christian at all. I'm just a non-believer who is not like you, cbayer Dec 2014 #27

Funny how so many people come to that conclusion though, innit? AtheistCrusader Dec 2014 #53

Many of us here were raised in various Christain faiths and because we were we can and do jwirr Dec 2014 #112

I think it is human nature goldent Jan 2015 #163

Oh you fell into the trap and made somebody's day! Warren Stupidity Dec 2014 #25

She gets that a lot Lordquinton Dec 2014 #157

Are you calling me an anti-atheist? Seriously? cbayer Dec 2014 #158

"Let's use a little of that sacred reason and rational thinking here..." cleanhippie Dec 2014 #159

Whoa. trotsky Dec 2014 #160

Come now! Just because you are atheist doesn't mean you use goldent Jan 2015 #164

That is abundantly clear for some individuals. cbayer Jan 2015 #165

She said with a shrug. Funny, that. n/t bvf Dec 2014 #119

Of course not FBaggins Dec 2014 #5

"When did sin ever have a dollar figure attached to it?" bvf Dec 2014 #122

What if that's your only source of money to live on? SheilaT Dec 2014 #11

But Jesus said ... This question is for Christians only obviously randys1 Dec 2014 #12

What exactly did Jesus say, in your opinion? cbayer Dec 2014 #14

YOu tell me, or you already did randys1 Dec 2014 #16

No, I only gave you my opinion, but you seem to have some ideas of your own. cbayer Dec 2014 #19

I am not a christian, and why doesnt his direction to give your money away apply to you or randys1 Dec 2014 #20

Where did give me such direction? nt FBaggins Dec 2014 #21

If you are a christian you must know where randys1 Dec 2014 #26

I am... and I know instead... FBaggins Dec 2014 #31

Jesus doesnt say anything about rich people not getting into heaven? randys1 Dec 2014 #33

Nope. FBaggins Dec 2014 #48

Who said the thing about eye of the needle? randys1 Dec 2014 #54

Jesus of course FBaggins Dec 2014 #62

Winner. Ink Man Dec 2014 #73

I am so glad that you explained this and explained it so well. cbayer Dec 2014 #74

But you can, can't you? Jesus gives many examples of actions that will get you into heaven, no? eomer Jan 2015 #168

Not within orthodox christian theology... no. FBaggins Jan 2015 #169

So is the translation incorrect, is that what you're saying? eomer Jan 2015 #170

It's a loophole most Christians have been using for a very long time... trotsky Dec 2014 #79

Degree of difficulty of camel bvf Dec 2014 #98

I'm not a christian either, so why should Jesus's directions apply more to me than you? cbayer Dec 2014 #22

you arent a christian? WHAT? i am so sorry, what are you then? randys1 Dec 2014 #24

I know this totally messes with your agenda. cbayer Dec 2014 #28

I just did randys1 Dec 2014 #29

Maybe you should read more in the religion forum instead of trying to entrap cbayer Dec 2014 #35

Like I said, I apologize, you spend so much time defending religion I thought you were religious randys1 Dec 2014 #36

Don't apologize. This ploy is deliberate. Warren Stupidity Dec 2014 #44

No ploy, I didnt know she was even going to respond to the thread. randys1 Dec 2014 #46

She is religious. She is an agnostic theist. And a staunch defender of all Warren Stupidity Dec 2014 #52

Oh, now to tell the truth I did not know that... randys1 Dec 2014 #55

What ploy? hrmjustin Dec 2014 #49

Oh, wait, you totally edited your post (repeatedly) while I was responding to you. cbayer Dec 2014 #32

So you arent a christian or muslim or jewish, I apologize it is just that I see you posting randys1 Dec 2014 #34

The fact that you feel you need to apologize says a lot. cbayer Dec 2014 #40

No, the apology had nothing to do with disrespect for religion, but you still wont say that you are randys1 Dec 2014 #42

I will answer any question you want about my personal position regarding religion, so cbayer Dec 2014 #45

I started the thread having nothing to do with you, your answer here is an interesting randys1 Dec 2014 #50

Oh, it's crystal clear that you and I don't share the same feelings cbayer Dec 2014 #59

We already work together if we vote for the Democrat no matter who it is given the alternative is randys1 Dec 2014 #61

It's not about creating more tolerance, it's about stamping out intolerance. cbayer Dec 2014 #67

Any further questions for me? cbayer Dec 2014 #123

Don't be cute. bvf Dec 2014 #147

The fact that you apologized is now being used to beat you over the head. Warren Stupidity Dec 2014 #47

But I am still confused, how can she be a non believer yet so prolific and so argumentative? randys1 Dec 2014 #56

Well that would be one obvious explanation. Warren Stupidity Dec 2014 #57

Good point, and given the fact that american christianity, yes mostly rightwingers, causes so randys1 Dec 2014 #60

Modern christians simply throw away bvf Dec 2014 #148

Who do you loathe more, believers or agnostics? rug Dec 2014 #83

She is a non-believer but does not hate religion. hrmjustin Dec 2014 #58

To imply that I hate religion is to assign some nonintellectual basis to my concerns; randys1 Dec 2014 #63

I was not implying that you hate it. hrmjustin Dec 2014 #64

So Christians are supposed to impoverish themselves? SheilaT Dec 2014 #51

Many Christians do impoverish themselves Mariana Dec 2014 #70

Hey! The system works! n/t. bvf Dec 2014 #150

According to the Gospels, yes they are. Act_of_Reparation Dec 2014 #155

What a shame more self-professed Christians don't behave that way. SheilaT Dec 2014 #156

I don't think Jesus needed cash. Phlem Dec 2014 #18

Did you get your end of the year statement? rug Dec 2014 #30

I would say many who have a few bucks gives to charity, it is a tax write off if nothing else. Thinkingabout Dec 2014 #37

I am giving to this place at the moment randys1 Dec 2014 #39

I feel sure each one has their own sweet projects they donate. Thinkingabout Dec 2014 #65

It depends on your age and where you live yeoman6987 Dec 2014 #38

Not the point, the question is at what point do you do what Jesus said to do, surely there is randys1 Dec 2014 #41

We have the example of the early Christians in the Book of Acts. Mariana Dec 2014 #72

I thought 10% was the standard. Not sure where I got that idea. --nt CrispyQ Dec 2014 #43

That's what most churches demand from their members Mariana Dec 2014 #71

Tithing is not a "demand". People are encouraged to tithe, but there is not requirement. cbayer Dec 2014 #77

Is 400k a lot of money ??? Historic NY Dec 2014 #66

Yes, it is. rug Dec 2014 #78

Stocks and bonds are fleeting here one day gone the next... Historic NY Dec 2014 #96

There's a bigger difference between having assets and having a paycheck and rent. rug Dec 2014 #99

Based on his subsequent comments, the writer of the OP No Vested Interest Dec 2014 #68

The Bible makes it crystal clear Cartoonist Dec 2014 #69

If you truly want to understand the camel analogy, read post #62... cbayer Dec 2014 #75

You paint with a broad brush! hrmjustin Dec 2014 #76

I need to Cartoonist Dec 2014 #84

Your comment makes it seem like believers don't really do anything for the poor. hrmjustin Dec 2014 #86

Yes you are Cartoonist Dec 2014 #89

Your post seemed to me to be speaking to us all. hrmjustin Dec 2014 #92

I see few exceptions Cartoonist Dec 2014 #94

The room was not a good fit for you. hrmjustin Dec 2014 #95

I followed the SOP Cartoonist Dec 2014 #100

Well all of the hosts including myself disagreed! hrmjustin Dec 2014 #101

That's my point about hypocricy Cartoonist Dec 2014 #103

Well the hosts decide what is appropriate in the rooms. hrmjustin Dec 2014 #104

Change the SOP Cartoonist Dec 2014 #107

Non-believers do post in there. hrmjustin Dec 2014 #108

Lol, you need a broad brush to paint walls but a finer one to indicate that cbayer Dec 2014 #88

How about this Cartoonist Dec 2014 #91

What is your definition of "true Christian"? cbayer Dec 2014 #93

How I measure up Cartoonist Dec 2014 #97

I did't ask if you accepted divinity or not. I know that you don't. I don't either. cbayer Dec 2014 #102

Call me out on my hypocricy Cartoonist Dec 2014 #106

On one thing we can agree, I think. cbayer Dec 2014 #109

The story about a rich man not being able to enter heaven pangaia Dec 2014 #115

Really? Cartoonist Dec 2014 #117

Really. pangaia Dec 2014 #120

So what is the definition of rich? Cartoonist Dec 2014 #134

I don't think you are really interested. pangaia Dec 2014 #135

That's a non-answer Cartoonist Dec 2014 #152

I did answer. pangaia Dec 2014 #153

Define 'have'? Erich Bloodaxe BSN Dec 2014 #80

I like the way you think, Erich. cbayer Dec 2014 #82

For me, it's simply socialism. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Dec 2014 #90

400,000? You mean the price rjsquirrel Dec 2014 #81

Hey there, rjsquirrel! Welcome to religion. cbayer Dec 2014 #87

Hey there, cbayer! Welcome to religion. Warren Stupidity Dec 2014 #154

I challenge you on all points rjsquirrel Jan 2015 #166

You may challenge me, but it will be meaningless unless you can provide some cbayer Jan 2015 #167

Half to poor people? and Defense? I havent heard that, half? really? randys1 Dec 2014 #136

I don't think Jesus gave away all his money. Was he ever mentioned in any of the 'stories' Sunlei Dec 2014 #85

I believe there is no such thing as sin (nt) LostOne4Ever Dec 2014 #105

Woooo - hot thread. Love it! cilla4progress Dec 2014 #110

I like that. Could we also apply it to other things? cbayer Dec 2014 #111

I think so. cilla4progress Dec 2014 #113

I like your religion. cbayer Dec 2014 #114

'zactly cilla4progress Dec 2014 #116

The Golden Rule. I should have it tattooed on my forearm, lol. cbayer Dec 2014 #118

I think "should" is not called for cilla4progress Dec 2014 #121

I agree in theory but not in practice. cbayer Dec 2014 #124

I suppose I agree.. cilla4progress Dec 2014 #125

And that would be consistent with following the golden rule, I think. cbayer Dec 2014 #126

Definitely. cilla4progress Dec 2014 #128

Personally, I find the filthy christian bastards who "give to the poor" disgusting. LTX Dec 2014 #129

Well played, LTX. cbayer Dec 2014 #131

If you do the math on a personal retirement, $400,000 will not provide a large distribution on a Thinkingabout Dec 2014 #130

No. Not necessarily. NYC_SKP Dec 2014 #132

The figure isnt relevant to my point that a real, true christian would give most of their money randys1 Dec 2014 #138

If that is your take away, you have learned little from this thread. cbayer Dec 2014 #140

I have learned little, huh LOL oh my... randys1 Dec 2014 #142

So, randys1, would you mind telling me what you have learned? cbayer Dec 2014 #144

Damn Xtians!!! And, Damn Visigoths! NYC_SKP Dec 2014 #146

And Vegans! And, most especially, the gluten intolerant. cbayer Dec 2014 #149

No, it is not sin in any religon I've heard of, ceartainly not Christainity. Agnosticsherbet Dec 2014 #151

Now that's a good question Prophet 451 Dec 2014 #161

Well, I hope you win the lottery! cbayer Dec 2014 #162

No. Iggo Jan 2015 #171