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Warren Stupidity

(48,181 posts)
48. in the real world you just grab the ankles
Wed Mar 4, 2015, 04:04 PM
Mar 2015

so have fun with your toys. Or some other bullshit.

It is interesting how changing the context and parameters messes with people's ethical analysis.


You are walking near a trolley-car track when you notice five people tied to it in a row. The next instant, you see a trolley hurtling toward them, out of control. A signal lever is within your reach; if you pull it, you can divert the runaway trolley down a side track, saving the five — but killing another person, who is tied to that spur. What do you do? Most people say they would pull the lever: Better that one person should die instead of five.

Now, a different scenario. You are on a footbridge overlooking the track, where five people are tied down and the trolley is rushing toward them. There is no spur this time, but near you on the bridge is a chubby man. If you heave him over the side, he will fall on the track and his bulk will stop the trolley. He will die in the process. What do you do? (We presume your own body is too svelte to stop the trolley, should you be considering noble self-sacrifice.)

In numerical terms, the two situations are identical. A strict utilitarian, concerned only with the greatest happiness of the greatest number, would see no difference: In each case, one person dies to save five. Yet people seem to feel differently about the “Fat Man” case. The thought of seizing a random bystander, ignoring his screams, wrestling him to the railing and tumbling him over is too much. Surveys suggest that up to 90 percent of us would throw the lever in “Spur,” while a similar percentage think the Fat Man should not be thrown off the bridge. Yet, if asked, people find it hard to give logical reasons for this choice. Assaulting the Fat Man just feels wrong; our instincts cry out against it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/24/books/review/would-you-kill-the-fat-man-and-the-trolley-problem.html?_r=0

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My own conscience is the final arbiter. cbayer Mar 2015 #1
VERY good answer rock Mar 2015 #85
Thanks, rock! You are absolutely right - it is those without cbayer Mar 2015 #93
Jeffrey Lebowski Act_of_Reparation Mar 2015 #2
Loaded question. trotsky Mar 2015 #3
the 87th uber-god. nt. Warren Stupidity Mar 2015 #4
I was born with this way. I have always considered myself a good person. I have always wanted Dont call me Shirley Mar 2015 #5
Does it physically hurt others or block their rights on point Mar 2015 #6
^^ Well said Hestia Mar 2015 #7
If only it were that simple. trotsky Mar 2015 #8
Individual has sovereignty over their own body. Anti choicer nixed. Next on point Mar 2015 #12
Anti-choicer believes fetus is an individual. Try again. n/t trotsky Mar 2015 #13
Their beliefs are irrelevant. They don't have ANY sovereignty over a woman's body on point Mar 2015 #17
Oh, I see. trotsky Mar 2015 #20
Rights are coupled to personhood. AtheistCrusader Mar 2015 #38
Oh neither do I. trotsky Mar 2015 #39
In a case like that, you balance the rights of bodily autonomy for the living, breathing... Humanist_Activist Mar 2015 #66
I agree, but of course that's not how they see the equation at all. trotsky Mar 2015 #70
There are a whole set of "trolley car dilemma" ethics puzzles Warren Stupidity Mar 2015 #11
It's disappointing that even among self-professed liberals... trotsky Mar 2015 #15
It's simpler. okasha Mar 2015 #18
Oh Hai Okasha! Warren Stupidity Mar 2015 #19
LOl okasha Mar 2015 #25
"Reality based"? You're funny. mr blur Mar 2015 #26
A little humor is a good thing. okasha Mar 2015 #27
Where did the other person come from? trotsky Mar 2015 #21
The trolley test is a bifurcation mechanism. AtheistCrusader Mar 2015 #36
I would refrain from intervening. AtheistCrusader Mar 2015 #30
Suppose it is 1000 to 1 Warren Stupidity Mar 2015 #32
There is no ratio at which I would intervene. AtheistCrusader Mar 2015 #34
What if it was all of humanity? trotsky Mar 2015 #37
I would die with my principles intact. AtheistCrusader Mar 2015 #40
Well let's say the folks on the space station could remain on it long enough... trotsky Mar 2015 #41
No, except AtheistCrusader Mar 2015 #42
Yeah I can say I'd have no problem diverting the asteroid. trotsky Mar 2015 #46
Yeah, I'm ok with informed consent, self-sacrifice, that's cool. AtheistCrusader Mar 2015 #47
What if Hitler is on the space station? trotsky Mar 2015 #49
No, if you want to get hitler, you need that asteroid to hit, because he's underground. AtheistCrusader Mar 2015 #50
I offer a counter to that saying Kelvin Mace Mar 2015 #82
"I would die with my principles intact." LTX Mar 2015 #110
Ah, another 'murder' contestant. AtheistCrusader Mar 2015 #111
As duly noted below, culpability can affix to inaction as well as action. LTX Mar 2015 #112
I posted this downthread but, here's an interesting lecture/Q-A session, also from Harvard on this. AtheistCrusader Mar 2015 #45
in the real world you just grab the ankles Warren Stupidity Mar 2015 #48
My choice would be to let the Kelvin Mace Mar 2015 #83
The audience response was consistent across the trolley and medical scenarios. Jim__ Mar 2015 #59
No it isn't. The Trolley dilemma is precisely the same whether it's the driver or a person on the AtheistCrusader Mar 2015 #60
From a deontological point of view, they are quite different. Jim__ Mar 2015 #61
Hold on. AtheistCrusader Mar 2015 #62
Deontology also proscribes injuring people. Jim__ Mar 2015 #64
"equivalent to a doctor saving 5 people rather than 1 due to a lack of resources." AtheistCrusader Mar 2015 #65
"Now we have equivalence." No, lying is also proscribed. Jim__ Mar 2015 #69
I thought the trap door was great as well, but I came to a different conclusion. AtheistCrusader Mar 2015 #72
You abstain from nothing you make a concious choice to do nothing Leontius Mar 2015 #73
If I throw that lever, I own a murder. AtheistCrusader Mar 2015 #74
Exactly what I said, you conciously choose to allow five people to die Leontius Mar 2015 #75
I don't own responsiblity for the impending deaths. AtheistCrusader Mar 2015 #76
Yes you do own that responsibility you have the ability to act and you choose not to. Leontius Mar 2015 #77
Inaction and action are not equal propositions. AtheistCrusader Mar 2015 #78
They are exactly equal propositions both lead to what happens. Leontius Mar 2015 #80
If I choose inaction, the five deaths are the responsibility of AtheistCrusader Mar 2015 #81
You can try to divert responsibility to others if you think it will make you feel better about Leontius Mar 2015 #84
It's not about 'feeling better'. AtheistCrusader Mar 2015 #86
Key word in your first sentence "my" Leontius Mar 2015 #87
Any other choice imperils our entire species. AtheistCrusader Mar 2015 #88
So does yours. Leontius Mar 2015 #89
Fair point. AtheistCrusader Mar 2015 #90
Sadly it's true there is no solution all can agree on Leontius Mar 2015 #91
That definitely sounds like you'd do nothing, to feel better muriel_volestrangler Mar 2015 #92
Not exactly. AtheistCrusader Mar 2015 #95
It's your belief that inaction is better than trying to save more people that looks odd muriel_volestrangler Mar 2015 #96
Number of lives is just another metric. AtheistCrusader Mar 2015 #97
In the absence of other data, saving more lives (or killing fewer, however you want to look at it) muriel_volestrangler Mar 2015 #98
When you said you would let all life on the planet die to maintain your principle Leontius Mar 2015 #99
I'm saying I refuse to establish or accept a precedent that involves killing innocent people AtheistCrusader Mar 2015 #100
The aspect of Ivan's speech that I was getting at, was the acceptance of responsibility. AtheistCrusader Mar 2015 #101
And the five you killed by your choice what absolution do you expect for that? Leontius Mar 2015 #102
I did not cause it. AtheistCrusader Mar 2015 #103
Your choice is to allow one person to die or five people to die. Leontius Mar 2015 #104
I didn't say 'no choice'. I am certainly making a choice. AtheistCrusader Mar 2015 #105
So in order to avoid your moral culpability you now turn to law. Leontius Mar 2015 #106
No, I'm pointing out that in all this time, despite your certainty that inaction is immoral, AtheistCrusader Mar 2015 #107
Law is not morality. Leontius Mar 2015 #108
Its not the controlling factor at all. AtheistCrusader Mar 2015 #109
Humanity is the arbiter of morality and goodness. Promethean Mar 2015 #9
Great answer. n/t trotsky Mar 2015 #16
Would this axiom survive first contact with an intelligent species somewhere else in the universe? AtheistCrusader Mar 2015 #43
I included learning and growth into it. Promethean Mar 2015 #53
No, no nefarious intent. AtheistCrusader Mar 2015 #54
That one is tough to wrangle. Promethean Mar 2015 #56
In the end, we all are. (nt) stone space Mar 2015 #10
I am the final arbiter. I am the god of hellfire. kwassa Mar 2015 #14
"I am the God of Hellfire" stone space Mar 2015 #63
I saw this yesterday and have been thinking about it TexasProgresive Mar 2015 #22
That line of thinking is a bit disturbing. trotsky Mar 2015 #23
I believe that is God in the end. hrmjustin Mar 2015 #24
How can you say clergy? Fix The Stupid Mar 2015 #33
They are people just like the rest of us and helpful to me in moral guidance. hrmjustin Mar 2015 #44
I do wonder how God and the Bible can influence your morality... Humanist_Activist Mar 2015 #68
I am. Bow before my magnificence. razorman Mar 2015 #28
The common human faculty of sympathy. rogerashton Mar 2015 #29
Reason. AtheistCrusader Mar 2015 #31
I think once one comes of age, the responsibility rests with the individual. My influences - pinto Mar 2015 #35
For my morality, I am. Jim__ Mar 2015 #51
My morals tend to originate from favorite fiction characters Android3.14 Mar 2015 #52
Which ones? cbayer Mar 2015 #57
There is no final arbiter...nt uriel1972 Mar 2015 #55
Ain't one, far as I can tell. Iggo Mar 2015 #58
Using reason, and the best available information to determine how to preserve... Humanist_Activist Mar 2015 #67
So, were you going to come back and contribute anything to your thread? n/t trotsky Mar 2015 #71
You Rang? libodem Mar 2015 #79
There is no "final arbiter" GliderGuider Mar 2015 #94
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