Religion

Yorktown

(2,884 posts)

45. Two subtle caveats.

Thu Mar 26, 2015, 05:14 AM

Mar 2015

I was expecting the second, not the first.

• I associated GDP to education, implicitly meaning GDP earned through work.
The oil countries foil the correlation as the wealth is not earned but pumped.
Despite all the money, petromonarchies could not build one single University in the top 1000.
When you can't teach text citicism or evolution, you can't have debate or bio PhDs.

• True, my charts are on declining faith. Because the truly faithful will always want an influence of Church on the State. I do not think you can have separation of Church and State if Religion is robust. Look at how folks in the Bible Belt are fighting tooth and claw to keep the teaching of the Big Bang and evolution as far as possible from schools. Separation of Church and State means Religion must be openly doubted and its influence reduced.

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Did religion ever bring anything to mankind? [View all] Yorktown Mar 2015 OP

Two possible responses you will get. Cartoonist Mar 2015 #1

Well, in a 'religion' forum, I just asked the root question. Yorktown Mar 2015 #3

Your OP is sound Cartoonist Mar 2015 #11

The OP is a series of unsupported assertions tossed out as an ill-conceived hypothesis. LTX Mar 2015 #143

Unsupported Assertions? Cartoonist Mar 2015 #144

One would hope that someone challenging the efficacy of religion LTX Mar 2015 #145

What are you trying to say? Cartoonist Mar 2015 #146

See my posts 139, 141, and 142, LTX Mar 2015 #147

Nothing there. Cartoonist Mar 2015 #148

Which is apparently behind a curtain and not addressing the points brought up by LTX. cbayer Mar 2015 #149

Empty points don't encourage discussion. Cartoonist Mar 2015 #150

Not addressing LTX point? How about addressing the OP? Yorktown Mar 2015 #166

That's certainly a substantive response. LTX Mar 2015 #151

Despite your ego Cartoonist Mar 2015 #152

Since you seem determined not to actually read the posts LTX Mar 2015 #154

Paragraph 2 has been discussed here before Cartoonist Mar 2015 #158

Weak sauce, Cartoonist. You need to up your game. n/t LTX Mar 2015 #159

You have yet to bring yours. Cartoonist Mar 2015 #160

This message was self-deleted by its author Yorktown Mar 2015 #167

This message was self-deleted by its author Yorktown Mar 2015 #164

Attacking the OP does not answer its question Yorktown Mar 2015 #165

You provided two answers yourself. LTX Mar 2015 #170

Interesting answer Yorktown Mar 2015 #172

What are the unsupported assertions, btw? Yorktown Apr 2015 #180

That kind of sucks for those of us who wish to make moral claims but... stone space Mar 2015 #2

That's why I used the 'overwhelming' qualifier Yorktown Mar 2015 #5

Not too long ago, the overwelming majority opposed gay marriage. stone space Mar 2015 #6

Agreed. Which proves my point Yorktown Mar 2015 #9

It proves no such thing. stone space Mar 2015 #12

Says who? The majority. Yorktown Mar 2015 #15

I am. stone space Mar 2015 #16

Oh, OK. You define morality. Yorktown Mar 2015 #20

In the end, we all have to think for ourselves, don't we? stone space Mar 2015 #23

Majority is one major source of morality Yorktown Mar 2015 #26

My support for gay marriage has nothing to do with other species. stone space Mar 2015 #28

It was a parallel Yorktown Mar 2015 #30

But what does that have to do with humans? Or with marriage? stone space Mar 2015 #31

I don't see where you are going Yorktown Mar 2015 #32

I'm not really going anywhere with it. stone space Mar 2015 #34

I understand, but the morality of society is majority rule. Yorktown Mar 2015 #35

No. Being in the minority is a fairly common experience for me. stone space Mar 2015 #37

You are straying too far in moral ontology Yorktown Mar 2015 #40

I don't subscribe to moral defeatism. (nt) stone space Mar 2015 #44

Me neither. nt. Yorktown Mar 2015 #46

I hate to break this to you okasha Mar 2015 #88

You still don't get the paradox, do you? skepticscott Mar 2015 #62

You could easily get the answer bvf Mar 2015 #21

You've confused "function" with "marketing". AtheistCrusader Mar 2015 #22

Hannibal Lecter would agree with you. Warren Stupidity Mar 2015 #54

Yes: Codification of social norms, expansion of technology, literature, more... NYC_SKP Mar 2015 #4

Art & Science were not brought by religion Yorktown Mar 2015 #7

You asked for contributions. I've listed a few. NYC_SKP Mar 2015 #10

Quite, but your examples are not contributions of religion itself. Yorktown Mar 2015 #13

Fair enough. But are you limiting the question to the major religions, western religions? NYC_SKP Mar 2015 #14

Agreed, but Yorktown Mar 2015 #17

No. bvf Mar 2015 #8

You made a valid theological point Yorktown Mar 2015 #18

Again, agreed. bvf Mar 2015 #19

Might have contributed to our survival at one point as a means of storytelling and copyerror control AtheistCrusader Mar 2015 #24

Same thing for circumcision Yorktown Mar 2015 #29

Likely true. AtheistCrusader Mar 2015 #66

Or require circumcisions be performed at adult age. Yorktown Mar 2015 #67

harry potter has seven books, that other guy only has half of one :-) nt msongs Mar 2015 #25

With Harry, Hermione and Ron as the three Wise Men? Yorktown Mar 2015 #27

To be fair, paper and pens were much scarcer then. merrily Mar 2015 #33

I don't much care if it ever did any good or ever will. I do care merrily Mar 2015 #36

I worry religion might bring WWIII, for the reason you stated. Yorktown Mar 2015 #38

Not sure why total separation of church and state won't fix what you say is the problem. merrily Mar 2015 #39

separation of church and state is in the cards Yorktown Mar 2015 #42

So, no more stonings in Saudi Arabia soon? merrily Mar 2015 #43

Two subtle caveats. Yorktown Mar 2015 #45

Religion brought us the Plowshares Movement stone space Mar 2015 #41

well then religion brought us ISIS too. Warren Stupidity Mar 2015 #81

It is possible to regard religious language as expressing non-negotiable ideas struggle4progress Mar 2015 #47

Religions don't seem to have non-negotiable ideas Yorktown Mar 2015 #48

"Christianity" and "Islam" are abstract words, and different people use the words in different ways struggle4progress Mar 2015 #49

What you wrote means religions are empty shells. Yorktown Mar 2015 #50

"Christianity" has a definite meaning to me; but "Islam" a considerably less definite meaning struggle4progress Mar 2015 #91

If the 'meaningy' of 'holy' books vary so much, they have no intrinsic value Yorktown Mar 2015 #92

It's quite common for special uses of language to develop, which have a clear meaning struggle4progress Mar 2015 #99

But languages do not make claims to universal Truth Yorktown Mar 2015 #102

Claims of approaches to universal truth are not necessary harmful, and struggle4progress Mar 2015 #111

"A Platonist on weekdays, and a Formalist on Sunday." (nt) stone space Mar 2015 #114

Excellent! struggle4progress Mar 2015 #119

Claim to universal truth can only be validated by proof Yorktown Mar 2015 #118

That's simply silly. okasha Mar 2015 #117

Shakespeare made no claim to universal, eternal value. Yorktown Mar 2015 #120

Irrelevant. okasha Mar 2015 #123

you use words so loosely your statements don't carry weight Yorktown Mar 2015 #125

Nothing loose about it. okasha Mar 2015 #169

Yea, but LiberalAndProud Mar 2015 #103

"People themselves have their own non-negotiable ideas" Warren Stupidity Mar 2015 #55

It seems like you are describing morals or societal norms. Chemisse Mar 2015 #153

I'm an atheist, but I think that religion has upsides. DetlefK Mar 2015 #51

Now, that was a brilliant answer Yorktown Mar 2015 #53

So hope phil89 Mar 2015 #86

It was sarcasm. nt. Yorktown Mar 2015 #94

well religion has utility - Warren Stupidity Mar 2015 #56

Imagine arguing with 10 kids each day. DetlefK Mar 2015 #58

I read this as bvf Mar 2015 #64

Maybe unapproachable authority-figures are better in a religion. DetlefK Mar 2015 #65

A good point well made. The sugar daddy in the sky kills Democracy. Yorktown Mar 2015 #68

Prayers = Letters to Santa. bvf Mar 2015 #70

Religion has utility? Back to the OP: what utility exactly? Yorktown Mar 2015 #69

controlling people, keeping them complacent, Warren Stupidity Mar 2015 #79

Was Mamie Till an idiot? BeyondGeography Mar 2015 #52

One can be wrong about something and not be an idiot. Warren Stupidity Mar 2015 #57

The OP is proof of that, yes BeyondGeography Mar 2015 #59

You seem a bit upset about the op. Warren Stupidity Mar 2015 #60

I'm upset that the Rangers shat the bed against the Kings the other night BeyondGeography Mar 2015 #61

I guess it must have "hit a nerve." n/t trotsky Mar 2015 #63

This message was self-deleted by its author cbayer Mar 2015 #71

I know who you are and I'm not playing. cbayer Mar 2015 #72

But you really want to, don't you? bvf Mar 2015 #74

Your selfless act is appreciated by all. cleanhippie Mar 2015 #75

I agree it is a game and I agree with your view. hrmjustin Mar 2015 #78

Wow! Just wow. Warren Stupidity Mar 2015 #80

Must be the "being the change you want to see" we always hear about. cleanhippie Mar 2015 #84

A conspiracy prevents you from justifying religion? Yorktown Mar 2015 #93

Brings people closer to the almighty. hrmjustin Mar 2015 #95

What is the almighty? Yorktown Mar 2015 #100

That is a question for the ages. hrmjustin Mar 2015 #101

In other words, it can be anything to anyone Yorktown Mar 2015 #104

That is not exactly true. hrmjustin Mar 2015 #105

Oh! Most people can't agree on what God is? What a surprise! Yorktown Mar 2015 #106

Deja Vu! The smiley. hrmjustin Mar 2015 #107

Can't think anything else about God than ROFL Yorktown Mar 2015 #108

Of course. hrmjustin Mar 2015 #109

We all know you're the person who thinks penguins are mammals okasha Mar 2015 #96

LOL. OK, I misremembered one of the trick P6 questions. Yorktown Mar 2015 #98

One thing religion definitely brought humans... trotsky Mar 2015 #73

+1000. n/t. bvf Mar 2015 #76

excellent analysis Skittles Mar 2015 #113

That might be my biggest beef with religion sammythecat Mar 2015 #174

I've been asking that question for years. Faux pas Mar 2015 #77

I'm just glad you don't have an axe to grind Android3.14 Mar 2015 #82

Wondering if captured n passed on knowledge via education on point Mar 2015 #83

Fire rock Mar 2015 #85

There is some beauty in it. LiberalAndProud Mar 2015 #87

"not to mention denominational dollars" Warren Stupidity Mar 2015 #89

All true, but the inspiration for this work was the Christ story. LiberalAndProud Mar 2015 #90

Almost all art of the time was commissioned work. okasha Mar 2015 #97

Don't examine that sponsorship too closely. LiberalAndProud Mar 2015 #110

Of course there was an alignment of wealth with the power of the Church. okasha Mar 2015 #115

I wasn't familiar prior to your post. It would have been interesting to see the completed work. LiberalAndProud Mar 2015 #116

Oh, yes. okasha Mar 2015 #122

On balance... deathrind Mar 2015 #112

Again, what did religion bring that was not already available? Yorktown Mar 2015 #121

Nothing deathrind Mar 2015 #129

One can disagree with religion, Maedhros Mar 2015 #124

Religion influenced civilization without bringing demonstrable good. Yorktown Mar 2015 #126

Modal music; really great Trappist beer... LuvLoogie Mar 2015 #127

So, religion's contribution was to inspire Art and beer making? Yorktown Mar 2015 #128

It does that as well. The printed word comes to mind as well. LuvLoogie Mar 2015 #130

Clearly, religions that survived customerserviceguy Mar 2015 #131

True. Religions were good tools of political power. Yorktown Mar 2015 #132

Religion basically boils down to a way for certain groups of people to control/exploit other people Arugula Latte Apr 2015 #183

Staunch anti-theist though I may be, I have never identified with this sentiment. Act_of_Reparation Mar 2015 #133

You are not showing religion ever brought anything Yorktown Mar 2015 #134

Art is more than just crafts and techniques LostOne4Ever Mar 2015 #135

True, religion inspired Art as a theme. That's not an input. Yorktown Mar 2015 #136

Link would disagree... LostOne4Ever Mar 2015 #137

True. But Link is like God, he doesn't exist. :) Yorktown Mar 2015 #140

It has been an effective vehicle for the global dissemination of Western European culture. LiberalAndProud Mar 2015 #138

I'll commit blasphemy and disagree with Bertrand Russell Yorktown Mar 2015 #163

Tough customer. LiberalAndProud Mar 2015 #168

"All these basic rules exist in all societies, even in those which did not invent gods." LTX Mar 2015 #139

"Studies have been made to try to correlate religious belief and levels of crime LTX Mar 2015 #141

How do they know that religion was a deterrent to criminal acts? Chemisse Mar 2015 #155

A very good question. LTX Mar 2015 #156

Those studies seem so nebulous that it seems disingenuous to use them as evidence of anything. LiberalAndProud Mar 2015 #157

I agree that correlation is generally a nebulous proposition. LTX Mar 2015 #161

When you start talking about tautology, my eyes tend to glaze over. LiberalAndProud Mar 2015 #162

OK: the correlation religion and crime is inconclusive at best Yorktown Mar 2015 #171

"In Antiquity, religions pinned events on imaginary beings (from Thor to Allah), LTX Mar 2015 #142

What is the nuance between explanation and cognitive illusion? Yorktown Mar 2015 #173

Placebo and an inspiration for the Arts summarizes the posts Yorktown Apr 2015 #175

Really? You didn't even respond to my example. stone space Apr 2015 #176

You linked to a very long video Yorktown Apr 2015 #178

You had me going until: jonno99 Apr 2015 #177

+1 cbayer Apr 2015 #182

Whatever religion 'contributed' in the positive sense, was probably before AtheistCrusader Apr 2015 #179

From your OP: "By all means, I do not have an axe to grind against religions." LTX Apr 2015 #188

The music of Bach, the poetry thucythucy Apr 2015 #181

Liberation movements were often Marxist, i.e. non religious Yorktown Apr 2015 #184

True, but liberation movements were also thucythucy Apr 2015 #185

You make some good points with which I still disagree Yorktown Apr 2015 #186

Each of these points can be disputed thucythucy Apr 2015 #187