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Major Nikon

(36,814 posts)
233. There is some evidence
Thu Apr 2, 2015, 04:00 AM
Apr 2015

Tacitus refers to Jesus' crucifixion. Somewhat less reliable are the references to Jesus by Flavius Josephus.

Both of these references simply point to the existence of Jesus, and very little of any deeds attributed to him, other than being crucified.

Most credible biblical scholars agree that all 4 canonical gospels were not written by those in which they are attributed. At best they are 3rd hand accounts of the life of Jesus and are most likely even farther removed. Using them as evidence of anything should be very suspect.

I can't prove Jesus existed but I believe he was man and is God. hrmjustin Mar 2015 #1
Well ok that's a position one could have too treestar Mar 2015 #2
Indeed. hrmjustin Mar 2015 #3
Same here. NaturalHigh Mar 2015 #6
. hrmjustin Mar 2015 #7
You too my friend. NaturalHigh Mar 2015 #8
I do too. I believe it all quite frankly. yeoman6987 Mar 2015 #52
Have a great Holy Week! hrmjustin Mar 2015 #54
You too! Actually can't believe it is here already! yeoman6987 Mar 2015 #67
Always an emotional time. hrmjustin Mar 2015 #69
God blesses sinners, and those who curse you Brettongarcia Apr 2015 #221
Indeed! hrmjustin Apr 2015 #222
cf. Luke 6.28 etc. Brettongarcia Apr 2015 #223
Pray for those who curse you. hrmjustin Apr 2015 #224
Oddly Brettongarcia Apr 2015 #237
If he's not a god, he's not the same guy. immoderate Mar 2015 #4
Disagree, he could have existed but not be a god treestar Mar 2015 #5
So there was some guy named Jesus who SAID he was a god... immoderate Mar 2015 #9
Well his name was edhopper Mar 2015 #11
people of that day and in fact many centuries later treestar Mar 2015 #14
Not sure what you meen by pangaia Mar 2015 #176
Actually, everything written about Jesus comes from the Apostles written after his death, still_one Mar 2015 #26
As far as I know nothing in the bible pangaia Mar 2015 #177
I am not even Christian, but wasn't the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, etc. authored by those folks? still_one Mar 2015 #178
No they were not. pangaia Mar 2015 #182
Then that makes them even more subject to error, an is more than just second hand information still_one Mar 2015 #183
Actually, okasha Mar 2015 #189
is that one too many Ms edhopper Mar 2015 #190
It was indeed. okasha Mar 2015 #193
I thought you might have found edhopper Mar 2015 #194
Uh huh. pangaia Mar 2015 #192
Yes, books. Those things you read. okasha Mar 2015 #195
Where do you get the idea that he said he was a god? Starboard Tack Mar 2015 #158
You mean he was the same as everybody else who could walk on water? immoderate Mar 2015 #166
What makes you think that he or anyone can or could walk on water? Starboard Tack Mar 2015 #174
I think you underestimate edhopper Mar 2015 #184
Not really. I know many take the miracles literally Starboard Tack Mar 2015 #185
okay edhopper Mar 2015 #187
We really can't be sure of anything edhopper Mar 2015 #167
Exactly! Starboard Tack Mar 2015 #175
Hmmmm...not sure I agree with that. stone space Mar 2015 #15
Or it could be an example of EUHEMERISM. immoderate Mar 2015 #42
Ah, so now you say he was not a god, but the son of God Starboard Tack Mar 2015 #163
In the three synoptic gospels, okasha Mar 2015 #188
I think that in all four gospels, Jesus calls himself "son of man" struggle4progress Mar 2015 #217
I think Matthew 16 verses 15 thru 20 Leontius Mar 2015 #219
Various appellations occur: "son of man," "son of David," "son of God." But in the gospels struggle4progress Apr 2015 #225
Why would you say that? notadmblnd Mar 2015 #30
Calling himself a Christian edhopper Mar 2015 #34
Indeed. notadmblnd Mar 2015 #40
It would be on a par with God saying he was religious Starboard Tack Mar 2015 #164
God isn't religious edhopper Mar 2015 #165
This reminds me of the barber... stone space Mar 2015 #171
If "Christian" means follower of Christ, I doubt that he'd call himself that. LiberalAndProud Mar 2015 #100
I don't think there is any edhopper Mar 2015 #10
Yeah, someone could have been executed treestar Mar 2015 #12
The portrayal in popular culture edhopper Mar 2015 #16
Which makes it interesting how the story caught on treestar Mar 2015 #17
I think he caught on edhopper Mar 2015 #18
Who was Helen and what did she do? treestar Mar 2015 #19
Helen was Constantine's mother edhopper Mar 2015 #21
Constantine did not make Christianity the religion of the Empire. Leontius Mar 2015 #169
I said I was being very simplistic edhopper Mar 2015 #173
3 different churches each have three different sites. Viva_Daddy Apr 2015 #229
She discovered the one true cross. LiberalAndProud Mar 2015 #37
Helen was one of the biggest Rubes of all time edhopper Mar 2015 #38
Do you suppose those folks lived long enough to think, LiberalAndProud Mar 2015 #44
No edhopper Mar 2015 #46
I don't think people were that cynical then treestar Mar 2015 #58
I think edhopper Mar 2015 #62
Maybe, but they didn't have the wherewithal treestar Mar 2015 #66
The places Helen deemed edhopper Mar 2015 #70
Either a man was raised from the dead or not. LiberalAndProud Mar 2015 #105
No, people are not that black and white treestar Mar 2015 #129
I think Jesus was just a good Essene and philosopher. leftofcool Mar 2015 #13
I don't take a position on whether there was a man behind the myth. LiberalAndProud Mar 2015 #20
The fact that edhopper Mar 2015 #22
I understand your point. LiberalAndProud Mar 2015 #23
If there was a movement edhopper Mar 2015 #24
Early Jewish christians were not part of the actual Jewish revolt against rome Warren Stupidity Mar 2015 #25
Do you think the myth was spun from whole cloth, then? LiberalAndProud Mar 2015 #41
You made a specific claim of a "revolutionary grassroots" ideology. Warren Stupidity Mar 2015 #95
You're entirely right that it's not a claim a can justify. LiberalAndProud Mar 2015 #98
Most of the christians here claim that they do not take the bible literally. Warren Stupidity Mar 2015 #106
Mmm. LiberalAndProud Mar 2015 #108
I note that there is nothing supernatural about crucifixion. Warren Stupidity Mar 2015 #115
True about the absence of the supernatural. LiberalAndProud Mar 2015 #117
I Think There are More On the Road Mar 2015 #181
I think edhopper Mar 2015 #111
except when pressed on some of the idiotic details Warren Stupidity Mar 2015 #127
I know a couple you can ask upthread. edhopper Mar 2015 #130
It's a myth copied phil89 Apr 2015 #251
Medieval peasants likely believed it all treestar Mar 2015 #51
The linkage of capitalist and protestant ideologies is well established. Warren Stupidity Mar 2015 #97
To justify, accommodate and encourage enormous disparities. n/t haikugal Mar 2015 #168
If you are a christian believer, you see it one way. cbayer Mar 2015 #27
I haven't seen a debate here, just sharing of diverse opinions. LiberalAndProud Mar 2015 #29
You haven't looked hard enough edhopper Mar 2015 #31
And this may turn into yet another. cbayer Mar 2015 #35
I find questions about history interesting edhopper Mar 2015 #36
You and many others, cbayer Mar 2015 #39
If it was told by edhopper Mar 2015 #45
Tell him that. cbayer Mar 2015 #47
Yes edhopper Mar 2015 #48
This particular tour guide did not characterize the war as a noble cause cbayer Mar 2015 #53
No, not an assumption edhopper Mar 2015 #60
Where did you grow up? cbayer Mar 2015 #61
Florida edhopper Mar 2015 #63
Ahhh, I get it. cbayer Mar 2015 #68
I was told in 8th grade history edhopper Mar 2015 #73
I totally believe you. cbayer Mar 2015 #77
Well yes edhopper Mar 2015 #81
(aside) My early schooling was in TX. We had Texas history before we had US history classes. pinto Mar 2015 #50
Exactly the opposite of mine and probably equally head spinning. cbayer Mar 2015 #56
Ah Texas edhopper Mar 2015 #57
The Alamo (1836) was before the Civil War. It was part of what's seen in TX as the Texas Revolution. pinto Mar 2015 #84
I was being a little flip edhopper Mar 2015 #89
Eh, you're fine with me. There were lots of opportunists in the mix. pinto Mar 2015 #99
Yeah edhopper Mar 2015 #107
Can you give us a synopsis of the differences between the two accounts? LiberalAndProud Mar 2015 #64
I do give some information down thread, but I'm not going to write cbayer Mar 2015 #71
How rarely our accounts of war illustrate the devastation left behind, ever. LiberalAndProud Mar 2015 #75
Absolutely agree. cbayer Mar 2015 #78
I get a chuckle edhopper Mar 2015 #76
Their distrust of northerners continues. cbayer Mar 2015 #80
I sometimes edhopper Mar 2015 #82
I have a deep love for the south and would never take that position. cbayer Mar 2015 #118
You would visit it edhopper Mar 2015 #123
Lol, that's true, but I tell you what really rankles me about talk of cbayer Mar 2015 #125
My mother had to have her mother-in-law rent a house for the family. My father was stationed in OR pinto Mar 2015 #112
That's exactly how it works. Lack of trust runs deep. cbayer Mar 2015 #119
I wasn't criticizing what was going on here, just putting in my 2 cents about the uselessness cbayer Mar 2015 #33
That's fine. I wasn't trying to pick a fight. LiberalAndProud Mar 2015 #43
Then why bother responding bvf Mar 2015 #83
I have to have a dog in the fight to express my opinion? cbayer Mar 2015 #88
I never said he never existed. bvf Mar 2015 #94
"Feel free to carry on with your misrepresentation of others' arguments.That seems to be your style" cbayer Mar 2015 #104
Noted. bvf Mar 2015 #110
It always matters treestar Mar 2015 #55
yes, I believe that religious zealots existed (as they do currently) who were/are not God. notadmblnd Mar 2015 #28
I think someone whom we have named Jesus, but whose real name was probably Cleita Mar 2015 #32
Interesting post. nt raccoon Apr 2015 #250
Sort of a moot point, imo. pinto Mar 2015 #49
Now, I'm going to have to take you to task, because this is a thorn in my side. cbayer Mar 2015 #65
Please find the humor intended here. LiberalAndProud Mar 2015 #72
It does indeed, but it's not what my friend pinto meant... cbayer Mar 2015 #74
LOL, I saw the discussion somewhere earlier. Now, pinto Mar 2015 #91
I move to table indefinitely. cbayer Mar 2015 #92
I'll second that emotion. pinto Mar 2015 #96
Who gives a shit what the rest of the world uses edhopper Mar 2015 #93
USA!!!! USA!!! USA!!!! cbayer Mar 2015 #101
FUCKEN A!!! edhopper Mar 2015 #103
Two questions that, for me, resolve the question in favor of Jesus's existence. Htom Sirveaux Mar 2015 #59
I am in the camp edhopper Mar 2015 #79
And I would agree with that gradual invention. Htom Sirveaux Mar 2015 #121
Thanks edhopper Mar 2015 #122
Your point #1? IphengeniaBlumgarten Mar 2015 #85
We don't have contemporary records for many ancient figures Htom Sirveaux Mar 2015 #114
It's interesting to me that you find elements of the story convincing because they are in the story. LiberalAndProud Mar 2015 #87
You could if you wanted, but it wouldn't be convincing unless you had more Htom Sirveaux Mar 2015 #116
I concede that my summary declarations carry no more or no less weight than yours. LiberalAndProud Mar 2015 #120
Lots of people were baptized by John, not just Jesus. Htom Sirveaux Mar 2015 #124
As I have said elsewhere, there is beauty in it. LiberalAndProud Mar 2015 #126
The principle is this: awkward bits of text are more probative that non-awkward bits struggle4progress Mar 2015 #144
It's problematic for me to accept the Bible as evidence that the Bible is true. LiberalAndProud Mar 2015 #147
If you actually read what I wrote, you will see that I merely applied rather standard methods struggle4progress Mar 2015 #149
I did read it, and now again. Actually. LiberalAndProud Mar 2015 #150
Yes, another thought would be edhopper Mar 2015 #148
another thing to consider guillaumeb Mar 2015 #86
Your kidding right. edhopper Mar 2015 #90
no guillaumeb Mar 2015 #102
I was referring to your use of the Koran edhopper Mar 2015 #109
There is no argument that Christians existed. That's well documented. LiberalAndProud Mar 2015 #113
There are actually two references in Josephus. okasha Mar 2015 #157
And also strange that a man edhopper Mar 2015 #159
There's another way of looking at that. okasha Mar 2015 #161
There was already a Christian movement by that time edhopper Mar 2015 #162
Josephus is second hand testimony Yorktown Mar 2015 #196
This message was self-deleted by its author Yorktown Mar 2015 #197
Josephus was a historian. okasha Mar 2015 #199
Josephus did not quote his sources and waited 20 years to mention Jesus Yorktown Mar 2015 #201
Ancient historians did not name their sources okasha Mar 2015 #203
You made three mistakes here Yorktown Mar 2015 #205
Wrong. Those three mistakes are yours. okasha Mar 2015 #206
No. You demonstrably committed 3 mistakes. Yorktown Mar 2015 #208
Josephus is evidence edhopper Mar 2015 #210
I would add that it further demonstrates okasha Mar 2015 #211
Yes. But Josephus is one evidence religions tamper with truth. Yorktown Mar 2015 #212
Yes edhopper Mar 2015 #213
Ranch dressing, please. okasha Apr 2015 #232
no and no Viva_Daddy Apr 2015 #230
I believe some of it. Promethean Mar 2015 #128
Or stories of several of these men edhopper Mar 2015 #131
Another likely hypothesis. Promethean Mar 2015 #134
I look at as edhopper Mar 2015 #137
I Believe the *Certainty* of Both Sides Comes from General Tribalism, On the Road Mar 2015 #132
Do you wonder why Paul added this? LiberalAndProud Mar 2015 #133
I Have Never Heard That Construed in That Way On the Road Mar 2015 #151
And that's the first I've heard of that construction of Paul's ejection from the temple. LiberalAndProud Mar 2015 #152
We Don't Know of Paul Being Thrown Out of the Temple Itself On the Road Mar 2015 #180
See, all that background only helps to convince me that Paul was the original Christian conman. LiberalAndProud Mar 2015 #186
Sorry to Miss Your Meaning -- On the Road Mar 2015 #191
The beginning of Galatians okasha Mar 2015 #160
Paul is interesting edhopper Mar 2015 #135
Paul account of Jesus life was second hand. LiberalAndProud Mar 2015 #138
Well edhopper Mar 2015 #140
I can't say. LiberalAndProud Mar 2015 #141
I don't know about Paul edhopper Mar 2015 #146
pssssst... stone space Mar 2015 #153
I'll correct it edhopper Mar 2015 #154
taint no God... pretzel4gore Mar 2015 #136
Yeshua Ben Yosef edhopper Mar 2015 #139
Really? LiberalAndProud Mar 2015 #142
heh heh edhopper Mar 2015 #145
That whole Alexandria thing? LiberalAndProud Mar 2015 #143
Yeah those thieving Ptolemies have a lot to answer for. Leontius Mar 2015 #170
Honestly, if I could get my hands on them! LiberalAndProud Mar 2015 #172
Wandering teacher-healers were part of the cultures in that region for centuries. Aunt Bold Ire8 Mar 2015 #155
Reza Aslan's book ''Zealot'' was helpful in seeing Jesus from a different perspective. YOHABLO Mar 2015 #156
From a textual level, Jesus seems to be a legendary figure, rather than a strict historical one... Humanist_Activist Mar 2015 #179
There probably was an Essenian Jew guru named Yeshua/Jesus Yorktown Mar 2015 #198
Good summary edhopper Mar 2015 #200
Thanks for the heads up Yorktown Mar 2015 #202
Jesus and his disciples are CHARACTERS in a DRAMATIC STORY... Viva_Daddy Apr 2015 #231
There must have been some elements of truth Yorktown Apr 2015 #236
It's rare to see a cult spring from nowhere, out of pure imagination. Warren Stupidity Apr 2015 #238
There were many 'cargo cults', all with a prophet or leader Yorktown Apr 2015 #239
however there was no historical "John Frum" Warren Stupidity Apr 2015 #241
True, the names Jesus or John Frum are not sure facts Yorktown Apr 2015 #249
It is questionable if edhopper Apr 2015 #246
I don't know but if he existed then he is dead and buried LostOne4Ever Mar 2015 #204
this brings up an interesting question DonCoquixote Mar 2015 #207
Or edhopper Mar 2015 #209
Good point, but DonCoquixote Mar 2015 #214
True edhopper Mar 2015 #216
There are records of convictions of Joseph Smith Yorktown Apr 2015 #240
Technology reduces the scope of religious fraud, but doesn't cancel out gullibility Yorktown Mar 2015 #215
I think it goes beyond gullibility. Act_of_Reparation Mar 2015 #218
My point was DonCoquixote Apr 2015 #247
There is no evidence the biblical character of Jesus of Nazareth ever existed. AtheistCrusader Apr 2015 #220
There is some evidence Major Nikon Apr 2015 #233
Maybe I wasn't clear but that's what I meant by specifying AtheistCrusader Apr 2015 #242
actually the Josephus references are considered more reliable by far than tacitus Warren Stupidity Apr 2015 #243
I'm not sure how Major Nikon Apr 2015 #244
I think edhopper Apr 2015 #245
Talk to an educated Jew sometimes. LongTomH Apr 2015 #226
Not in my Jewish upbringing DavidDvorkin Apr 2015 #228
Not all Jews respect(ed) Jesus Yorktown Apr 2015 #235
Which Jesus are you talking about? nichomachus Apr 2015 #227
Very true, the writers of the gospels injected different inputs Yorktown Apr 2015 #234
You're absolutely right...so show the evidence that he existed... brooklynite Apr 2015 #248
Latest Discussions»Issue Forums»Religion»Whether Jesus existed his...»Reply #233