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Religion

In reply to the discussion: Is Free Will an Illusion? [View all]

westerebus

(2,978 posts)
48. This is going to get complicated. so bear with me.
Sat Dec 17, 2011, 12:21 AM
Dec 2011

Free will is not an illusion, humans understand the concept but confuse it with choice which is what humans have under limited conditions. To posess free will you would have to have god like powers which humans do not have. An example would be the mythos of jesus' power to have raised the dead or to change water into wine. This is a demonstration of free will. To materially affect change by willing it to happen.

Humans have limited choice. We can choose to be kind. We can choose to be cruel. We can't will some one to be kind. We can't will someone who is cruel to us to stop. We can choose to be kind in the face of cruelty. Or we can if possible choose to end the abuse with the options available to us.

If we had free will, the ability to control our destiny but affecting the universe around us by will alone, we wouldn't be here.

Where this gets interesting is how it is applied to form deterministic mythology. Again, jesus as god was fullfilling his role in the sacrafice of a god as attonement for the sins ( choices ) of man. Right up to his death he possessed free will, the power of a god to affect change beyond human means. Despite this power he died begging for the cruelty to stop. Some take this as a lesson that their god has a plan for them and life while predetermined still requires adherence to a mythology that is conflicted with its teachings. Blind obedience to authority is not a christian concept, it's much older than that.

The ability to get people to choose to obey because they believe they have free will, a power they share with the gods, helps. Having the biggest and cruelest god willing to sacrafice his only son is a hard act to follow.

The teachings of jesus don't rely on the power of a god. They don't rely on free will. They were simple to follow. Choose to be kind. Choose to forgive. Choose to stop cruelty. The example of cruelty that many see is that of jesus nailed to a cross and abandoned by his god. It is at that point in time the god of abraham stops dead. Just gone from the world of the Hebrews. Leaving the sacrafice behind without so much as an explaination as to why hell itself wasn't emptied in exchange.

As the myth continues, jesus completes his rescurection from the dead to prove that he is a god. Mythology is all there is to explain the difference between man and god. All the silliness that followed from the myth just comes full circle. Away from kindness and returning to cruelty in the name of he who forgives sins.

Yes, I'm still an agnostic. I do try to practice kindness. Not because jesus wants me to. It's a choice that as a human I can.

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Is Free Will an Illusion? [View all] FarCenter Dec 2011 OP
No. -- I am programmed to say that. immoderate Dec 2011 #1
Probably. n/t laconicsax Dec 2011 #2
A couple of thoughts. Jim__ Dec 2011 #3
Wow. This is gonna make a hit at the Annual Solipsism Tournament! n/t TygrBright Dec 2011 #4
I really wanted to say no... Fumesucker Dec 2011 #5
Within the context of some religions for whom it is a key doctrinal element...yup. iris27 Dec 2011 #6
Free from what? ChadwickHenryWard Dec 2011 #7
Two possibilities are that ... Boojatta Dec 2011 #9
The alternative is not predestination, but rather that the unconscious makes most of the decisions FarCenter Dec 2011 #24
If one has no choices, and if (in particular) one has no choice about the positions struggle4progress Dec 2011 #8
I watched a show on Science channel a week or so ago EvolveOrConvolve Dec 2011 #10
Well all of that is based on one single beliefe zeemike Dec 2011 #11
It may also be that time is a giant space octopus, or an odorless scent. laconicsax Dec 2011 #12
Can't prrove a negative... zeemike Dec 2011 #18
How do they explain devices that measure time? ZombieHorde Dec 2011 #14
Obviously, clocks aren't real. n/t laconicsax Dec 2011 #15
No clocks are real zeemike Dec 2011 #20
How do you know what you claim to know? laconicsax Dec 2011 #29
He may be using one of the "other ways of knowing," cleanhippie Dec 2011 #41
They don't zeemike Dec 2011 #17
The Platonic forms don't exist, sorry. n/t laconicsax Dec 2011 #21
And you know this how? zeemike Dec 2011 #23
I could ask you the exact same question. laconicsax Dec 2011 #28
I am not claiming to know anything zeemike Dec 2011 #39
Sure you are. You have made several bold proclamations. cleanhippie Dec 2011 #42
Cave-mechanics tama Dec 2011 #27
Our mind is the source of all perception. zeemike Dec 2011 #40
Name it tama Dec 2011 #44
Are you saying everything happens at once? nt ZombieHorde Dec 2011 #22
I am not saying anything ...I am saying that illusion is possable in the mind zeemike Dec 2011 #25
What time is real, what illusion? tama Dec 2011 #19
Perhaps it is all illusion zeemike Dec 2011 #26
Time doesn't exist? ChadwickHenryWard Dec 2011 #31
Time tama Dec 2011 #32
Unfortunatly this brings up another mind boggler zeemike Dec 2011 #38
No trouble tama Dec 2011 #45
I know it chalanges your mind zeemike Dec 2011 #37
How can you call something an "illusion" ChadwickHenryWard Dec 2011 #46
Well I probably should not have brought this up here zeemike Dec 2011 #47
There was a study that suggested people have "free won't." ZombieHorde Dec 2011 #13
I heard of the "Free Won't" hypothesis a while ago. It's very interesting. Odin2005 Dec 2011 #16
Freedom not to choose?! nt tama Dec 2011 #33
I don't believe in free will, uriel1972 Dec 2011 #30
What's really going to bake your noodle later is darkstar3 Dec 2011 #34
How will I choose to respond? uriel1972 Dec 2011 #35
I think my point was about "illusion" darkstar3 Dec 2011 #36
Massimo Pigliucci's free will roundtable. Jim__ Dec 2011 #43
This is going to get complicated. so bear with me. westerebus Dec 2011 #48
The "sacrifice of his only son" would be inconsequential to god FarCenter Dec 2011 #49
But not to man. westerebus Dec 2011 #50
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