Religion

Agnosticsherbet

(11,619 posts)

58. For the many religious people I know, their religion is what makes them the people they are.

Reply to Humanist_Activist (Original post)

Sun Jun 7, 2015, 02:43 PM

Jun 2015

Generous, kind to a fault, loving, considerate, happy.

In the same way, the beliefs and philosophies of secular humanists make them what they are.

Generous, kind to a fault, loving, considerate, happy.

Asking individuals of either group to, temporarily, remove an essential piece of their history, personality, and life in order to evaluate whether they would be a better person is an impossible task.

Now, if you ask a member of the old Red Brigades or ISIS if their philosophies (Red Brigades were a Marxist-Leninist left wing terrorist group in Italy) ISIS (extremist Islam) if their philosophies or religions made them better people, I suspect they would also find it impossible to extract the core of who they are and make an informed judgment.

Does being a secular humanist make you a better person that you would otherwise be? All you need to do is extract every bit of what that philosophical belief brings into your life and leave a vacuum and tell me if what is left informs your actions in a positive or negative way.

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Does your religion make you a better person than you would otherwise be without it? n/t [View all] Humanist_Activist Jun 2015 OP

Am I a person with a faith, or a faith inhabiting a person? guillaumeb Jun 2015 #1

So you are unable to answer the question? cleanhippie Jun 2015 #3

Are you unable to understand my answer? guillaumeb Jun 2015 #7

Are you unable to understand the question? cleanhippie Jun 2015 #9

Almost like a tennis match. guillaumeb Jun 2015 #13

I think one can know. cleanhippie Jun 2015 #15

Here is a definition: guillaumeb Jun 2015 #18

Using the first definition... cleanhippie Jun 2015 #46

A rational and reasonable response. guillaumeb Jun 2015 #49

Which brings us back to the original question. cleanhippie Jun 2015 #50

My faith gives me an example to follow. guillaumeb Jun 2015 #59

I would imagine that's a selective reading of Jesus, he's not a nice example to follow... Humanist_Activist Jun 2015 #63

His words versus the words of some of his followers? guillaumeb Jun 2015 #106

But does your religion make you a better person than you would otherwise be without it? cleanhippie Jun 2015 #64

You know you've struck gold skepticscott Jun 2015 #69

I give credit to guillaumeb for an honest and civil exchange so far. cleanhippie Jun 2015 #85

Does your claimed lack of faith make you a better person than you would be guillaumeb Jun 2015 #107

Why the deflection? cleanhippie Jun 2015 #123

So, you go around cursing unproductive foliage? AtheistCrusader Jun 2015 #82

I do not understand your response. eom guillaumeb Jun 2015 #108

I thought you knew about the life and philosophy of jesus? AtheistCrusader Jun 2015 #109

Are you referring to the story of the mustard seed? eom guillaumeb Jun 2015 #110

No. AtheistCrusader Jun 2015 #111

You have misread Mathew, and the point of the story. guillaumeb Jun 2015 #112

Jesus could not have driven the money changers from the Temple. Yorktown Jun 2015 #113

Splitting of hairs. guillaumeb Jun 2015 #115

Not splitting any hairs, pointing out an impossibility Yorktown Jun 2015 #117

And your basis for asserting how many money changers there were? guillaumeb Jun 2015 #118

Just picture a shopping alley in an open air market Yorktown Jun 2015 #119

The fruit tree has a natural cycle of production. AtheistCrusader Jun 2015 #114

I repeat myself, at the risk of seeming crude: guillaumeb Jun 2015 #116

Anyway, the NT fig tree stories contradict themselves Yorktown Jun 2015 #120

Your repetition does not improve the story. AtheistCrusader Jun 2015 #122

Why ask a question with an obvious answer? Cartoonist Jun 2015 #2

I would argue that no they wouldn't, plenty of people are well aware that their religion... Humanist_Activist Jun 2015 #57

I'm an atheist so this question doesn't apply to me directly, but I will report that my Nay Jun 2015 #83

I think this fear is instilled in them due to their religion... Humanist_Activist Jun 2015 #86

I got the impression that he was very afraid of what he might do if he wasn't Nay Jun 2015 #90

I'm just wondering if that fear is his own conscience, a true sociopath wouldn't care about others.. Humanist_Activist Jun 2015 #96

I Am Not Religious - I Am What I Am cantbeserious Jun 2015 #4

Do you have a corncob pipe and a craving for spinach? AtheistCrusader Jun 2015 #99

Fancy That - I Do cantbeserious Jun 2015 #100

I believe the answer to this involves experience, ethics and morality. tymorial Jun 2015 #5

I think my experiences with religion, positive and negative, have made me a fuller person. pinto Jun 2015 #6

Absolutely Zamen Jun 2015 #8

How? cleanhippie Jun 2015 #10

It gives me a reason to show more restraint Zamen Jun 2015 #11

Restraint from what? cleanhippie Jun 2015 #12

Being able to do what I want Zamen Jun 2015 #14

You don't think that you already do just that? cleanhippie Jun 2015 #16

Well of course Zamen Jun 2015 #19

"it was only my religion and morality that stopped me from doing it." cleanhippie Jun 2015 #21

My morality came from religion Zamen Jun 2015 #22

What morality do you get from your religion? cleanhippie Jun 2015 #23

Only by people who choose to misinterpret the lessons for their own benefit Zamen Jun 2015 #26

Only by people who choose to misinterpret the lessons for their own benefit? cleanhippie Jun 2015 #38

I either use my interpretation, or we admit that there's no such thing as morality Zamen Jun 2015 #41

I fail to understand how if we don't use YOUR interpretaion, there is no morality. cleanhippie Jun 2015 #44

So you follow biblical law to the letter? No exceptions? Warren Stupidity Jun 2015 #27

I'm not a Christian, strictly speaking Zamen Jun 2015 #35

substitute "biblical" for whatever religion you are. Warren Stupidity Jun 2015 #36

Not always, but I try my best Zamen Jun 2015 #39

So you get your morality from Yahweh, who slaughtered innocents Arugula Latte Jun 2015 #33

That's NOT morality phil89 Jun 2015 #93

well I think his claim is that we are all amoral and it is only fear o god that keeps us in line. Warren Stupidity Jun 2015 #105

Ahhh... gcomeau Jun 2015 #135

So you want to do evil Cartoonist Jun 2015 #17

How can you even define "evil" if you're an atheist? Zamen Jun 2015 #20

God is not needed Cartoonist Jun 2015 #24

But then what is the health and well being of humanity? Zamen Jun 2015 #28

Positive and Negative Cartoonist Jun 2015 #45

Different people around the world will have different opinions Zamen Jun 2015 #48

How does God untangle "this mess"? n/t Humanist_Activist Jun 2015 #51

By being an objective source of morality Zamen Jun 2015 #53

Can you give an example of this "objective morality"? n/t Humanist_Activist Jun 2015 #54

That's where you're wrong Cartoonist Jun 2015 #55

How so? Zamen Jun 2015 #56

Not necessarily, the strength of a type of utilitarian argument is rather strong... Humanist_Activist Jun 2015 #60

Good and evil are totally subjective. Period. cleanhippie Jun 2015 #87

And how does it magically become objective skepticscott Jun 2015 #70

God is the only being with the authority to define it Zamen Jun 2015 #72

So give us some specific examples skepticscott Jun 2015 #74

More to the point Zamen Jun 2015 #76

So in other words, you can't justify skepticscott Jun 2015 #78

Can you justify your ethical beliefs? Zamen Jun 2015 #80

Yes, I will make some assumptions, first, all humans are alike in our emotional and physical makeup. Humanist_Activist Jun 2015 #84

Why would I feel the need to? You made the claim skepticscott Jun 2015 #101

It's a Poe. cleanhippie Jun 2015 #92

And it looks like we'll see them skepticscott Jun 2015 #127

I don't know whether to feel humbled or bummed. Iggo Jun 2015 #137

" it's critical that we preserve it" - 'cause otherwise we might stop burning witches. Warren Stupidity Jun 2015 #104

Look up consequentialism phil89 Jun 2015 #94

So how does that apply to you? Warren Stupidity Jun 2015 #25

I've been in many situtations where I knew I could have done something Zamen Jun 2015 #29

And you didn't do this thing because it was a sin according to your gods? Warren Stupidity Jun 2015 #31

That's right Zamen Jun 2015 #32

And you have never done anything that is a sin according to your gods? Warren Stupidity Jun 2015 #37

Of course, but there's also forgiveness Zamen Jun 2015 #40

So there is forgiveness but somehow religion is the only barrier to your immorality. Warren Stupidity Jun 2015 #66

Would you prefer it if I had no morality at all? Zamen Jun 2015 #71

Why would you have no morality? n/t Humanist_Activist Jun 2015 #81

Why would that be necessary? Humanist_Activist Jun 2015 #65

For many people, it's just a lack of opportunity Zamen Jun 2015 #68

A small minority of people are sociopaths, lacking empathy, and would concede that... Humanist_Activist Jun 2015 #73

That's why I don't understand atheists trying to destroy the only thing Zamen Jun 2015 #75

Its not the only thing, indeed its probably the least effective thing, from what I can tell... Humanist_Activist Jun 2015 #77

HA, we've got us a Poe. cleanhippie Jun 2015 #89

Poe! cleanhippie Jun 2015 #88

Most sociopaths live healthy productive lives Lordquinton Jun 2015 #125

You do bring up a good point, and, as far as crime syndicates go, religion is one of the ways... Humanist_Activist Jun 2015 #129

What makes us "better persons" are compassion and empathy. Big Blue Marble Jun 2015 #30

It does for me DeadEyeDyck Jun 2015 #34

I would agree with you on that being offensive... cleanhippie Jun 2015 #47

Why is it offensive? I have to justify my beliefs all the time... Humanist_Activist Jun 2015 #52

You don't have to justify your faith to anyone. Mariana Jun 2015 #61

I used to be a Christian long ago newfie11 Jun 2015 #42

Probably. Jackpine Radical Jun 2015 #43

For the many religious people I know, their religion is what makes them the people they are. Agnosticsherbet Jun 2015 #58

This is a chicken or egg thing I think, because, for example, I'm a Secular Humanist... Humanist_Activist Jun 2015 #62

And you incorporated those things in your life, no matter the source. Agnosticsherbet Jun 2015 #103

I think i would be the same uf i was an unbeliever. hrmjustin Jun 2015 #67

Whew. Thats good to know. cleanhippie Jun 2015 #95

My life. hrmjustin Jun 2015 #97

The Church of the SubGenius? Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jun 2015 #79

Absolutely Not AC_Mem Jun 2015 #91

Like any human capacity religion can be both good and bad. Just like governance, applegrove Jun 2015 #98

Being involved in the UU community has made me a better person CanonRay Jun 2015 #102

Do circular, personal semantic arguments make one a better person? pinto Jun 2015 #121

Yep! goldent Jun 2015 #124

Yes. Practicing my faith keeps me mindful of the needs Ilsa Jun 2015 #126

And this is how we act on it: Ilsa Jun 2015 #128

NO marjan Jun 2015 #130

Welcome to DU. DU also has some limitations. Typing in all caps is discouraged for example. JDPriestly Jun 2015 #131

Welcome to DU! gopiscrap Jun 2015 #134

Does your humanism make you a better person that you would otherwise be without it? cbayer Jun 2015 #132

Considering that poeple frequently say their religion makes them better people... cleanhippie Jun 2015 #133

Being "better" or "worse" due to beliefs are legitimate questions. Yorktown Jun 2015 #136

"not legitimate questions"? Warren Stupidity Jun 2015 #139

I'm asking for personal impressions, not objective truths. Humanist_Activist Jun 2015 #140

It would be hard to obtain an objective truth in terms of your question, wouldn't it? cbayer Jun 2015 #141

True, what I was wondering is how many people lean on their religious beliefs to justify their... Humanist_Activist Jun 2015 #142

I suppose there are people like that and I have heard them described cbayer Jun 2015 #143

Well, one of the posters in this thread, for one, I even argued I didn't think he was sociopathic... Humanist_Activist Jun 2015 #144

I'm not sure who you are talking about, but if he got tombstoned cbayer Jun 2015 #145

I was taught, more or less, the same as you, I'm talking about hoother people describe themselves... Humanist_Activist Jun 2015 #146

Ah, evangelizers. cbayer Jun 2015 #147

It was funny, in this particular case, I think I was responding to transgender issues on the... Humanist_Activist Jun 2015 #148

I think so much of this is circular. cbayer Jun 2015 #149

I think the philosophies, the religions, the politics, the education, and the beliefs I carry LanternWaste Jun 2015 #138

No, I would still be the same person Marrah_G Jun 2015 #150

having been brought up religious and since aboandoning religion rurallib Jun 2015 #151

Yes. It guides a lot of who I am, including my progressive political views. (nt) UrbScotty Aug 2015 #152

No Marrah_G Aug 2015 #153