Religion

DetlefK

(16,670 posts)

18. I have found a theological proof concerning God's omnipotence, omniscience and prayers.

Mon Dec 7, 2015, 05:38 PM

Dec 2015

I wrote it down somewhere, I can post the original version tommorrow if you like.

The gist of it:
God cannot be at the same time omnipotent AND omniscient AND react to prayers.

The proof goes basically like this:
Step 1: God is omnipotent, so he is immune to time. Plus, God is omniscient, so he always has known everything and always will know everything. => God is unchanging. (Baring caveat, see below.)

Step 2: Things happen, because God (in his omniscience) has laid out a plan.

Step 3: If somebody prays to God, can God alter the future of that person? God has a plan and always knew what plan to have and God used his infinite powers to set his plan into motion and keep it on track.

Step 4: Can God still change the plan? Of course, he's omnipotent.
God now uses his omnipotence to react to the prayer.

Step 5: Can God still stick to the plan? Of course, he's omnipotent.
God now uses his omnipotence to make sure everything goes along as planned.

Step 6: see Step 4

Andsoforth.

You have one indivisible, timeless being who at the same time uses omnipotence to do what it wants and to do the opposite of that.

Do you see a solution to that paradoxon? I don't.

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Why Can�t Some People Feel God�s Existence? [View all] Mary A. Osborne Dec 2015 OP

And so... EdwardBernays Dec 2015 #1

If that's what you believe and it makes you happy. The Velveteen Ocelot Dec 2015 #2

Sometimes, suffering is also God's blessing. Linda C. Brazil Dec 2015 #143

Let me be the first Cartoonist Dec 2015 #3

Pretty egotistical God, if you ask me. COLGATE4 Dec 2015 #4

I believe that is in fact what the Bible says. nt SusanCalvin Dec 2015 #52

I feel sorry for you. COLGATE4 Dec 2015 #58

Huh? I was under the impression I was agreeing with you. SusanCalvin Dec 2015 #63

I don't "feel the existence" of Santa Clause either. fleur-de-lisa Dec 2015 #5

+1 Leftyforever Dec 2015 #30

There no relations between Santa and God. Linda C. Brazil Dec 2015 #136

Aren't you precious! fleur-de-lisa Dec 2015 #137

I think. Linda C. Brazil Dec 2015 #139

Because.... (get ready for it) he doesn't exist! immoderate Dec 2015 #6

Huh? nruthie Dec 2015 #7

That would also explain bvf Dec 2015 #8

Why did all the people get killed and slaughtered in the concentration camps in WWII? shraby Dec 2015 #9

You know, your post reminds me - we watched a TV show - a movie - about Jewish inmates at PatrickforO Dec 2015 #128

Why can't some people understand analogies? whatthehey Dec 2015 #10

Wow, thanks for the anti-atheist bigotry. trotsky Dec 2015 #11

God is, by definition, outside the ability of mere humans to comprehend. Maedhros Dec 2015 #12

I bet Epicurus had long hair. Cartoonist Dec 2015 #15

"God is, by definition, outside the ability of mere humans to comprehend." trotsky Dec 2015 #16

Actually I'm ok with that as a hypothesis. whatthehey Dec 2015 #21

I have found a theological proof concerning God's omnipotence, omniscience and prayers. DetlefK Dec 2015 #18

It's circular reasoning. Maedhros Dec 2015 #25

??? You completely missed the point. DetlefK Dec 2015 #61

Yeah, I saw that. My train of thought derailed...[n/t] Maedhros Dec 2015 #67

Then the god you are claiming is outside our capability to understand must not be omnipotent. AtheistCrusader Dec 2015 #43

God is, by definition, outside the ability of mere humans to comprehend? How do you know? Yorktown Dec 2015 #48

So the lesson we're supposed to take away from this is... gcomeau Dec 2015 #13

Nice feel-good story. As long as you don't tell it from the barber's viewpoint. DetlefK Dec 2015 #14

Actually that's a much more interesting question whatthehey Dec 2015 #17

Well, Dan Barker, of ffrf, SusanCalvin Dec 2015 #53

Wait a minnit Cartoonist Dec 2015 #19

Just wanted to say Hi and welcome to DU... NeoGreen Dec 2015 #20

Just want to add Cartoonist Dec 2015 #24

If by "better" you mean "nobody will challenge what you say"... -eom gcomeau Dec 2015 #39

I mean Cartoonist Dec 2015 #41

Works too... -eom gcomeau Dec 2015 #42

We grew up. (nt) mr blur Dec 2015 #22

Why can't some people stop espousing their absurd beliefs with absurd anecdotes? cleanhippie Dec 2015 #23

"Why can't some people stop espousing their absurd beliefs..." . Hmmm...it begs the question: jonno99 Dec 2015 #29

Im using the commonly used dictionary definition. cleanhippie Dec 2015 #36

Chuckling out loud! There are many religious folk who would say EXACTLY the jonno99 Dec 2015 #40

Apparently, your definition of "same thing" is not a common one. cleanhippie Dec 2015 #44

It's not about examples, it's about your use of the word 'absurd'. I simply jonno99 Dec 2015 #45

I don't follow your logic regarding substituting 'atheist' for 'religious'. cleanhippie Dec 2015 #46

Ok - have a good one! nt jonno99 Dec 2015 #49

I always do. cleanhippie Dec 2015 #66

I'm glad to hear it! jonno99 Dec 2015 #68

I'm sure you are. cleanhippie Dec 2015 #69

You seem intent on picking a fight. Sorry, to dissappoint, but I have no interest. In regards jonno99 Dec 2015 #72

You've claimed several times that I have a belief system. cleanhippie Dec 2015 #73

I've not used the word "god" in this thread, and yet you keep digging in your heels. My advice is jonno99 Dec 2015 #74

In a thread about belief in a god, you're not talking about belief in a god? cleanhippie Dec 2015 #75

I'm simply talking about dogmatism. Whether it manifests itself in jonno99 Dec 2015 #84

You don't think believing dead people coming back to life... cleanhippie Dec 2015 #85

Chuckles. I can see where someone would think so. But looking at the larger picture, jonno99 Dec 2015 #87

Not only small potatoes, but absurd potatoes. cleanhippie Dec 2015 #88

Ah - but you're missing my point. The religious folk would claim that jonno99 Dec 2015 #90

I'd agree with them that 'something from nothing' is absurd. cleanhippie Dec 2015 #92

Not accusing - simply making making an observation. It's very simple really, jonno99 Dec 2015 #94

Chuckles. Your continued false equivalency btween belief and non-belief is absurd. cleanhippie Dec 2015 #95

"Belief that these things are real are absurd, are they not?" Well, jonno99 Dec 2015 #97

So you begin with false equivalency and end with circular reasoning. cleanhippie Dec 2015 #100

It's obvious that you have strongly held beliefs - kudos to you jonno99 Dec 2015 #102

Lol. Yeah, I sure do. cleanhippie Dec 2015 #105

Well, without being dogmatic, Truth matters Yorktown Dec 2015 #115

So, we CAN toss the bible? If we're imagining a world where people don't take themselves too serious AtheistCrusader Dec 2015 #82

Sure. But please note that I'm not suggesting that we take NOTHING serioulsy. I'm jonno99 Dec 2015 #86

Do you think some opinions should be taken more seriously than others? trotsky Dec 2015 #89

I think serious, reasoned opinions should be treated as such. More importantly, jonno99 Dec 2015 #91

So are religious beliefs opinions or facts? n/t trotsky Dec 2015 #93

It probably depends on who you ask. My understanding of the Christian jonno99 Dec 2015 #96

Are those elements 50-50 propositions then? trotsky Dec 2015 #99

"Are those elements 50-50?" I can't help you there. Now you're discussing matters of "faith". You'd jonno99 Dec 2015 #103

Well I've noticed on this thread you want to define "extremist" groups. trotsky Dec 2015 #104

Notice how he treats your question about the moon as absurd on its face. cleanhippie Dec 2015 #107

Well, have YOU ever been to the moon? trotsky Dec 2015 #108

I'm very dogmatic and rigid in my assertion that moon is not made of cheese. cleanhippie Dec 2015 #109

It's never been my assertion that "neither has proof". It is my assertion that blanket statements jonno99 Dec 2015 #111

I understand it's uncomfortable seeing where your train of thought goes. trotsky Dec 2015 #120

I don't know what to make of this sentence: jonno99 Dec 2015 #121

Typically when a person (me) uses a 2nd person pronoun (you), trotsky Dec 2015 #124

You treat his question as patently absurd! cleanhippie Dec 2015 #106

Sigh...we've been to the moon CH. Therefore if anyone were to cling to previosuly held jonno99 Dec 2015 #110

Then how about unicorns? cleanhippie Dec 2015 #112

Sorry CH - you're going to have to slay your own strawmen. I must say though jonno99 Dec 2015 #113

Lol. Phrase it any way that makes you feel better, but the only thing slayed here cleanhippie Dec 2015 #114

Wait - you didn't slay the straw men too?! You can't just leave them running around you know... jonno99 Dec 2015 #116

Again, end this in any manner that helps you feel better about it. cleanhippie Dec 2015 #119

I think all of the straw men left running around could explain the mystery of goldent Dec 2015 #130

An impotent God HassleCat Dec 2015 #26

If believing gives you comfort, then by all means believe. randys1 Dec 2015 #27

he saw a man with shoulder-length hair and stubbly cheeks. Kalidurga Dec 2015 #28

Logic and reason argue against god. earthside Dec 2015 #31

Nothing says "I'm here with good intentions" like a flame-baity hit-and-run post Heddi Dec 2015 #32

And a 19 post newbie, at that. cleanhippie Dec 2015 #38

This message was self-deleted by its author goldent Dec 2015 #50

Not a real good analogy. Manifestor_of_Light Dec 2015 #33

When the day comes, as it does in every life, that you face a catastrophic illness, or Squinch Dec 2015 #34

I don't think your post makes sense. I'm being logical. Manifestor_of_Light Dec 2015 #56

So read it again and use a little more logic. You pretty much restated what I said. Squinch Dec 2015 #70

So if I don't believe in God, does that mean my crises are worse? Manifestor_of_Light Dec 2015 #80

Not even close. Squinch Dec 2015 #98

Tell me what you are saying. Manifestor_of_Light Dec 2015 #118

Mary is suggesting that the reason there is pain and suffering in the world is Squinch Dec 2015 #125

Oh all right. Manifestor_of_Light Dec 2015 #126

No problem Squinch Dec 2015 #127

God better don't exist or s/he would have to be a giant vindictive prick, according thereismore Dec 2015 #35

Hey, I've not been in this group before, and I like it! SusanCalvin Dec 2015 #55

Anyone can post anything here about religion, positive or negative, and get free responses AtheistCrusader Dec 2015 #65

Gotcha, thanks. SusanCalvin Dec 2015 #79

Yes, A.C. Manifestor_of_Light Dec 2015 #81

Because he don't. (n/t) Iggo Dec 2015 #37

So you're saying that God arranges people getting sick, but you will be able to understand that muriel_volestrangler Dec 2015 #47

If, when I die, edhopper Dec 2015 #51

. SusanCalvin Dec 2015 #54

A truly stupid analogy. SheilaT Dec 2015 #57

The Incredible Shrinking God!!!!... nt uriel1972 Dec 2015 #59

Chain letter mail mentality Person 2713 Dec 2015 #60

And how does your rather unconvincing analogy skepticscott Dec 2015 #62

THAT'S what I've been doing wrong? Act_of_Reparation Dec 2015 #64

This is a representation of the best that theists have. Promethean Dec 2015 #71

hi Linda C. Brazil Dec 2015 #135

I thought the context of the post was pretty clear. Promethean Dec 2015 #138

what drivel n/t mindem Dec 2015 #76

... RKP5637 Dec 2015 #77

As an atheist I jeard on the radio once said rurallib Dec 2015 #78

The God in that story sounds like a sadistic asshole. Marrah_G Dec 2015 #83

Everyone does, we just call it by different names. elleng Dec 2015 #101

LOL, wut? tkmorris Dec 2015 #117

If you bothered to have one reply in this thread Goblinmonger Dec 2015 #122

Isn't that begging the question? raccoon Dec 2015 #123

If there is a god why do some of the most evil, dishonest people doc03 Dec 2015 #129

Learn how to see God and feel the Infinite Limitless Divine by modifying your android phone sanatanadharma Dec 2015 #131

If you don't know god, you can't claim to be unable to know it. AtheistCrusader Dec 2015 #140

Thank you, MIRT.... opiate69 Dec 2015 #132

Now if this were proposed as evidence for gods Warren Stupidity Dec 2015 #133

I suspect this "trash" is still around skepticscott Dec 2015 #141

This is hilarious! Arugula Latte Dec 2015 #134

They don't feel him, because he doesn't exist. JRLeft Dec 2015 #142

Dragos are pretty awesome Lordquinton Dec 2015 #144

Abrahamic Gods are mass murderers. JRLeft Dec 2015 #145