Religion

Brettongarcia

(2,262 posts)

128. Like many Christians, you've misread John 20.24-30

Sun Oct 2, 2016, 01:43 PM

Oct 2016

Thomas is demanding material proof of God. Specifically that Jesus had fatal wounds, but still lived. Jesus note, does not refuse that request, but authorizes, even commands, doubting Thomas to probe the wounds of Jesus, with his fingers (John 20.27).

Next? Though Jeses "blesses"those who believe without such physical proofs, the word "bless" does not connote approval. Jesus tells his disciples elsewhere to say, bless those who curse them.

Getting a "Blessing" from God therefore, does not just mean getting approval for your actions from God. Rather it connotes that your behavior is bad; and it hopes that instead of your present bad behavior, you will be gifted with better behaviors and ideas, in the future.

After this rebuke of those who believe just on faith, without evidence or proofs, John 20 concludes with yet another, final assertion that many material proofs - here, "signs" - have been furnished, and should be sought, before believing (John 20.30-31).

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Atheists still waiting for proof that God exists [View all] Cartoonist Oct 2016 OP

In that case, describe that for which you want proof. rug Oct 2016 #1

A sentient being Cartoonist Oct 2016 #2

And what proof are you looking for? rug Oct 2016 #15

Prove any attribute you like Cartoonist Oct 2016 #19

Okay. What proof do you want for infinite? rug Oct 2016 #20

What have you got? Cartoonist Oct 2016 #21

You're begging the question. What proof can contain something infinite? rug Oct 2016 #22

Not so Cartoonist Oct 2016 #24

Okay prove where matter came from. rug Oct 2016 #28

Why? Cartoonist Oct 2016 #38

Because if you can't, there may be another thing to consider than an eternal, infinite universe. rug Oct 2016 #39

I know Cartoonist Oct 2016 #42

I consider the possibility of one to be rational. rug Oct 2016 #44

What's rational about assuming that possibility exists without evidence to support that assumption. cleanhippie Oct 2016 #76

Read the thread then get back to me about evidence. rug Oct 2016 #89

You find that it is good to worship a being that would destroy all of mankind except eight people?? Angry Dragon Oct 2016 #163

For starters, the question is whether it's rational to consider the existence of God. rug Oct 2016 #165

Evil existed before man ........... Angry Dragon Oct 2016 #166

Impossible. rug Oct 2016 #167

It says so in the Bible ........... god created the tree of knowledge .............. good and evil Angry Dragon Oct 2016 #168

Not at all what I said. I hope you have not based your world view on that. rug Oct 2016 #169

the ball should be in the court of those claiming the existence of god or gods rurallib Oct 2016 #26

"In that case, describe that for which you want proof." rug Oct 2016 #29

a god or gods existence rurallib Oct 2016 #30

Define the god you want proven. rug Oct 2016 #31

Circular bullshit. cleanhippie Oct 2016 #77

Now the circle is complete. rug Oct 2016 #80

It has to stop somewhere. cleanhippie Oct 2016 #83

Looks like it's on you. rug Oct 2016 #85

thanks to your smear. cleanhippie Oct 2016 #87

Yes, I see it's smeared. rug Oct 2016 #91

Define the god you want proven. AlbertCat Oct 2016 #143

If you're demanding evidence, state what you want evidence of. rug Oct 2016 #150

It should be obvious to you why many people can't believe in a god. cpwm17 Oct 2016 #151

Oh, it is and it has nothing to do with inapt notions of evidence. rug Oct 2016 #170

state what you want evidence of. AlbertCat Oct 2016 #156

There is no experiment that can be made, none at all. rug Oct 2016 #171

There is no experiment that can be made, none at all. AlbertCat Oct 2016 #172

Ah, another hope, no matter how slight, dashed. rug Oct 2016 #175

Ah, another hope, no matter how slight, dashed. AlbertCat Oct 2016 #176

Hope that you'd learn something. rug Oct 2016 #178

Hope that you'd learn something. AlbertCat Oct 2016 #179

Math can indicate an infinite series, without containing an infinity Brettongarcia Oct 2016 #95

Why doesn't he take over all the TV broadcasts for a few minutes. rickford66 Oct 2016 #65

Because it's not a trained baboon. rug Oct 2016 #66

Actually I'm not looking because he isn't there. rickford66 Oct 2016 #68

Maybe a circus is a better choice for you. rug Oct 2016 #70

I'll quit messin with ya. rickford66 Oct 2016 #72

Have a good night. rug Oct 2016 #73

Ask a miracle and get one, promises 1 Kings 18.20-40 etc.. Brettongarcia Oct 2016 #94

I don't think Ba′al adds anything to this discussion. rug Oct 2016 #101

Baal and God both are asked to prove their existence Brettongarcia Oct 2016 #109

Which is a nonsequitur to this subthread. rug Oct 2016 #119

The thread asserts God should prove his existence Brettongarcia Oct 2016 #122

No. It asserts there remains no proof for an infinite, eternal universe. rug Oct 2016 #123

Not: "Why doesn't he take over the TV"? Brettongarcia Oct 2016 #126

? rug Oct 2016 #127

The title: "Atheists are ... waiting for proof" Brettongarcia Oct 2016 #130

Sorry, but the Bible has no credibility Cartoonist Oct 2016 #138

Many believers only accept biblical arguments. Brettongarcia Oct 2016 #140

Some would say that if the exsistence of god could be proven then there would be no need for faith Angry Dragon Oct 2016 #164

This is all you need. guillaumeb Oct 2016 #3

I already believe Cartoonist Oct 2016 #4

Then you are half way there. guillaumeb Oct 2016 #8

The same Cartoonist Oct 2016 #14

That is a bizarre coincidence. guillaumeb Oct 2016 #111

Are you trying to suggest God exists... Act_of_Reparation Oct 2016 #16

Or, the third option, that you have to have faith. eom guillaumeb Oct 2016 #112

I really can't imagine what you think you are asking for, but I suspect only silly responses struggle4progress Oct 2016 #5

You win Cartoonist Oct 2016 #6

The idea is due to a very talented mathematician (J Barkley Rosser) struggle4progress Oct 2016 #9

After careful scrutiny Cartoonist Oct 2016 #13

That is certainly a clear indication of some problem. But can you find the actual problem? struggle4progress Oct 2016 #27

Self-referential circular logic. . . . . nt Bernardo de La Paz Oct 2016 #7

Indeed Cartoonist Oct 2016 #10

I am pleasantly surprised you noticed that struggle4progress Oct 2016 #12

Not circular but indeed self-referential struggle4progress Oct 2016 #11

Ok, now let's substitute god for a unicorn Lordquinton Oct 2016 #32

That is certainly a clear indication of some problem. But can you find the actual problem? struggle4progress Oct 2016 #34

No, enlighten me. Lordquinton Oct 2016 #36

I should not want to deprive you of the pleasure of thinking it through yourself, struggle4progress Oct 2016 #54

Is there no one here that can give a straight answer? Lordquinton Oct 2016 #59

I took the trouble to spell out Rosser's argument in detail struggle4progress Oct 2016 #71

So just summarize it in laymans terms. cleanhippie Oct 2016 #78

There's not much benefit to me in explaining what I think we might learn from Rosser's argument, struggle4progress Oct 2016 #105

Try again Cartoonist Oct 2016 #107

Is it that you don't accept the law of the excluded middle, that you don't accept struggle4progress Oct 2016 #108

As pointed out by myself and others Cartoonist Oct 2016 #110

That is certainly a clear indication of some problem. But can you find the actual problem? struggle4progress Oct 2016 #114

Of Course One Could Easily Substitute "Santa Claus" for "God" malchickiwick Oct 2016 #103

That is certainly a clear indication of some problem. But can you find the actual problem? struggle4progress Oct 2016 #104

Perhaps you should have a talk with God about your questions & concerns - jonno99 Oct 2016 #17

What is His number? Cartoonist Oct 2016 #18

There are many professed athiests who became believers. Their stories might give you jonno99 Oct 2016 #23

I am never moved by weak minds Cartoonist Oct 2016 #25

That answer seems to be a bit of a cop-out - or do you think that your attitude is unique? jonno99 Oct 2016 #33

It takes a strong mind to concede one might be wrong. rug Oct 2016 #35

It takes a weak mind Cartoonist Oct 2016 #40

It takes a porous mind to think there can be natural proof of unnatural things. rug Oct 2016 #41

I don't believe in the unnatural either Cartoonist Oct 2016 #45

Then you're stuck in explaining this universe. rug Oct 2016 #46

I prefer the scientific approach Cartoonist Oct 2016 #48

So god, which is as you just pointed out, unnatural? cleanhippie Oct 2016 #79

We might, if you knew what the word meant. rug Oct 2016 #82

How disappointing, yet expected. cleanhippie Oct 2016 #84

I expect you're familiar with disappointment. rug Oct 2016 #86

When it comes to getting a straight answer from you, indeed I am. cleanhippie Oct 2016 #88

Can't blame me for your disappointments. rug Oct 2016 #90

For he is known by the things that are visible Brettongarcia Oct 2016 #96

My, paraphrasing scripture. Here's Hebrews 11:3. rug Oct 2016 #100

Daniel, in Dan. 1.4-15, has a porous mind? Brettongarcia Oct 2016 #115

Are you just randomly typing Bible citations? rug Oct 2016 #117

Daniel alleges a proof that God's food laws are good Brettongarcia Oct 2016 #121

On book tours, catering to other believers no doubt. AtheistCrusader Oct 2016 #180

Considering the evidence for a god existing has been all but completely eroded Lordquinton Oct 2016 #37

You really haven't been paying attention, quinton. rug Oct 2016 #43

Did someone provide any form of evidence to back up their claim? Lordquinton Oct 2016 #49

Precisely. You haven't been paying attention. rug Oct 2016 #51

I have seen no proof posted Lordquinton Oct 2016 #52

You haven't seen any definition of the required proof either. rug Oct 2016 #53

Um, what? Lordquinton Oct 2016 #57

So Rug admits he has no proof, but just faith? Brettongarcia Oct 2016 #97

Gosh, we'd better ask him. rug Oct 2016 #99

Here is the question Brettongarcia Oct 2016 #113

Rather than ask Brettongarcia. I'll give you my answers. rug Oct 2016 #118

Here you abandon much of Christianity Brettongarcia Oct 2016 #124

Incorrect. The essence of Christianity is belief despite doubt. rug Oct 2016 #125

Like many Christians, you've misread John 20.24-30 Brettongarcia Oct 2016 #128

Lol! Sure I have. rug Oct 2016 #129

1 Corin. 15 asserts many material proofs Brettongarcia Oct 2016 #131

Message auto-removed Name removed Oct 2016 #47

Not that BS again Cartoonist Oct 2016 #50

Message auto-removed Name removed Oct 2016 #55

Prove it Cartoonist Oct 2016 #63

Message auto-removed Name removed Oct 2016 #64

I don't think you understand Cartoonist Oct 2016 #75

You said "God has always been there". That's what's being discussed. cleanhippie Oct 2016 #81

Dude lordsummerisle Oct 2016 #58

Message auto-removed Name removed Oct 2016 #67

Amen! cornball 24 Oct 2016 #60

Collecting old copies of the bible = good hobby uppityperson Oct 2016 #62

Message auto-removed Name removed Oct 2016 #69

Welcome to DU. MADem Oct 2016 #74

i'm not still waiting, I'm just happy no one has bothered me juxtaposed Oct 2016 #56

I'm not waiting with bated breath because I don't expect it. SusanCalvin Oct 2016 #61

I've decided I don't care if god exists or not, because... Binkie The Clown Oct 2016 #92

Day 2 Cartoonist Oct 2016 #93

Only day 2?...methinks this could take awhile longer... NeoGreen Oct 2016 #102

Make sure you my offering to your list: there have been many atheists who once thought as you do - jonno99 Oct 2016 #145

What offering? Cartoonist Oct 2016 #146

I offered an answer to your question. You can spend your days howling "there is no proof", jonno99 Oct 2016 #153

FYI Cartoonist Oct 2016 #154

Fair enough. Again, good luck. nt jonno99 Oct 2016 #155

Can you prove that God is provable? DetlefK Oct 2016 #98

Hire Penn & Teller to judicate Cartoonist Oct 2016 #106

So... the threshold for proving God is the opinion of an illusionist? DetlefK Oct 2016 #120

lol! rug Oct 2016 #135

That's two who can't recognize humor Cartoonist Oct 2016 #137

That must be it. rug Oct 2016 #139

The same question must be asked of believers Orrex Oct 2016 #132

You are overlooking something: DetlefK Oct 2016 #148

Anyone who bases action or policy upon the existence (or Word) of God... Orrex Oct 2016 #160

Atheist and agnostic aren't mutually exclusive terms. Act_of_Reparation Oct 2016 #141

I try to avoid making absolute statements based on belief. DetlefK Oct 2016 #149

No one's asking you to. Act_of_Reparation Oct 2016 #152

Thanks to S4P Cartoonist Oct 2016 #116

Thanks. Buckeye_Democrat Oct 2016 #142

Good logicians typically enjoy unpacking arguments to understand what assumptions are involved, struggle4progress Oct 2016 #158

Godel didn't make it known until he thought he was dying in 1970. Buckeye_Democrat Oct 2016 #159

... Morgenstern recorded in his diary entry for 29 August 1970, that G�del would not publish because struggle4progress Oct 2016 #161

From that Wikipedia link... Buckeye_Democrat Oct 2016 #162

G�del argued at length for a belief in an afterlife. AlbertCat Oct 2016 #173

Funny but also eerily accurate. trotsky Oct 2016 #177

I'm afraid I'm not smart enough MFM008 Oct 2016 #133

That's a pretty smart observation. rug Oct 2016 #136

But you are smart enough.... AlbertCat Oct 2016 #174

Not waiting at all. Iggo Oct 2016 #134

Atheists still waiting for proof that God exists AlbertCat Oct 2016 #144

I agree with your point Cartoonist Oct 2016 #147

This atheist isn't waiting for any proof of existence or nonexistence. stone space Oct 2016 #157