Religion

kwassa

(23,340 posts)

137. 1.6 million died in, or as a result of the Gulags. Hogwash, indeed.

Sun Apr 29, 2012, 09:15 PM

Apr 2012

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulag

According to a 1993 study of archival Soviet data, a total of 1,053,829 people died in the Gulag from 1934 to 1953.[6] However, taking into account that release of prisoners suffering from incurable diseases, or the prisoners on the point of death was a common practice[12][13] the actual GULAG death toll was somewhat higher, amounting to 1,258,537 in 1934-53, or 1.6 million casualties during the whole period from 1929 to 1953.[14]

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Why We are Mad At You by an Atheist [View all] Taverner Apr 2012 OP

I think much of the science stuff was generated by the Church in its heyday as another gateley Apr 2012 #1

Yes, ordinary people weren't learned or holy or qualified to read the bible Warpy Apr 2012 #3

if they 'hate' how are they better. I am tired of hating by anyone. roguevalley Apr 2012 #31

Heck, I'll rec that. ret5hd Apr 2012 #2

KnR! KansDem Apr 2012 #4

I think you're confusing me with somebody else. struggle4progress Apr 2012 #5

Don't stop him, he's on a roll. rug Apr 2012 #6

Well much of what you say is true, but twice you said humblebum Apr 2012 #7

This is a huge discussion within itself Taverner Apr 2012 #11

Actually many of them were killed in the name of atheism. nt humblebum Apr 2012 #13

Were they killed by atheists? Orrex Apr 2012 #14

Who said anything about Hitler? nt humblebum Apr 2012 #34

Nearly every Christian to claim that atheism has killed more people than Christianity. That's who. Orrex Apr 2012 #41

I don't consider Hitler to be an atheist. In fact, it isn't clear what he was. humblebum Apr 2012 #66

Well, take it up with those Christians who raise him up as a paragon of atheism Orrex Apr 2012 #73

I have seen them and there is some evidence that he considered the humblebum Apr 2012 #76

A good point, but remember... Orrex Apr 2012 #79

Both are true. nt humblebum Apr 2012 #81

"Only in your mind" darkstar3 Apr 2012 #104

And in the history books. nt humblebum Apr 2012 #106

What hogwash. Where do you get this nonsense? Starboard Tack Apr 2012 #122

Tell me which of those involved killing in the name of atheism Orrex Apr 2012 #133

No the point was, if you bothered to read the OP Starboard Tack Apr 2012 #138

If you bothered to read the thread, you'd understand that I wasn't replying to the OP Orrex Apr 2012 #146

No matter how many times you repeat that lie, it remains just that. opiate69 Apr 2012 #16

There is far too much supporting evidence for it to be a lie. nt humblebum Apr 2012 #33

So much evidence, in fact, that you seem to feel no need to provide it Orrex Apr 2012 #45

Nor do I see any evidence saying that religion was responsible for more deaths humblebum Apr 2012 #67

no. just no. Warren Stupidity Apr 2012 #17

" Nazi Germany was not an atheist state" - so who said it was? nt humblebum Apr 2012 #35

"Your argument dishonestly conflates the two" cleanhippie Apr 2012 #42

Wrong. rrneck Apr 2012 #22

"Communism is a religion like any other." ? Starboard Tack Apr 2012 #123

It's just a question of the object of belief. rrneck Apr 2012 #127

So you're saying atheism is a religion too? Starboard Tack Apr 2012 #130

Yes. rrneck Apr 2012 #136

You certainly are a very singular fellow. I like that. Starboard Tack Apr 2012 #141

Yes. rrneck Apr 2012 #142

You know that's almost 100% incorrect, right? Orrex May 2012 #155

Do you like being an atheist? nt rrneck May 2012 #156

As opposed to what? Orrex May 2012 #159

Do you prefer it to theism? rrneck May 2012 #160

I "prefer" atheism insofar as it is more verifiably consistent with observed reality than theism Orrex May 2012 #162

Lots of people like extreme sports. Some like roller coasters and other thrill rides. rrneck May 2012 #177

You're simply off the mark, both in terms of logic and persuasiveness Orrex May 2012 #182

It's fairly simple. rrneck May 2012 #183

Not sure what you're arguing, then Orrex May 2012 #190

So you got nothin'. Allrighty. rrneck May 2012 #192

Take your best shot. You won't offend me. Orrex May 2012 #195

It's a lot easier to be an atheist rrneck May 2012 #196

if atheism is not a religion why do keep posting in a religion group?nt Thats my opinion May 2012 #157

Because he wants to? eqfan592 May 2012 #158

Why would one have to claim a religion for the right to post here? nt rrneck May 2012 #161

No, Stalin, Kim Il-sung, Pol Pot, Ho Chi Minh, Vo Nguyen Giap, Che Guevera, Fidel Castro, Mao or... Taverner Apr 2012 #50

Actually, The League of Militant Atheists was charged with doing exactly what humblebum Apr 2012 #65

That was discredited - never happened Taverner Apr 2012 #71

Then the reopened Soviet archives, eyewitness accounts, Solzhenitsyn, films, and humblebum Apr 2012 #80

Cite your historians... Taverner Apr 2012 #95

"identifying one leader under one Communist Oligarchy" - not hardly. The period humblebum Apr 2012 #96

Please give me a count, how many people were killed as a result of State Atheism.... Taverner Apr 2012 #98

He can't skepticscott Apr 2012 #107

We have been through this many times before, and even in the face humblebum Apr 2012 #119

The fact is skepticscott Apr 2012 #120

The figure of 130 million is extremely important because humblebum Apr 2012 #121

Now you're calling people who disagree with you Holocaust deniers?! darkstar3 May 2012 #203

What a ruse! I could have easily said that denying humblebum May 2012 #205

And that STILL would have been offensive, not just to Jews, but in general. darkstar3 May 2012 #213

You do a pretty good job of that yourself. nt humblebum May 2012 #215

This message was self-deleted by its author humblebum May 2012 #204

No True Atheist would be a Communist! kwassa Apr 2012 #92

WHAT? I am just saying the reason for killing wasn't atheism... Taverner Apr 2012 #93

You are telling me that there was no persecution of Christians in the Soviet Union? kwassa Apr 2012 #109

Under Stalin, yes. Under anyone else, not really. Taverner Apr 2012 #111

The greatest murderers in history. Maybe 60 million dead between the two of them. kwassa Apr 2012 #114

That is not killing. Taverner Apr 2012 #115

Arrests and imprisonment in the Soviet Gulag often ended in death. kwassa Apr 2012 #117

And many historians realize that death was clearly the intention. Far too humblebum Apr 2012 #118

Hogwash skepticscott Apr 2012 #134

But, but, but, the League of Militant Atheists!!!!!! cleanhippie Apr 2012 #135

Like the sun rises.. skepticscott Apr 2012 #140

1.6 million died in, or as a result of the Gulags. Hogwash, indeed. kwassa Apr 2012 #137

And how does any of that show skepticscott Apr 2012 #139

Death doesn't have to be the stated intention, merely the result. kwassa May 2012 #149

Not according to the title of 118 above skepticscott May 2012 #151

Yes, that's why so many were underfed and poorly clothed. humblebum Apr 2012 #144

You are severely lacking. humblebum Apr 2012 #147

What you actually said was Starboard Tack Apr 2012 #126

Please consult with your mentor regarding when the no true scotsman snark is appropriate. Warren Stupidity Apr 2012 #105

So they didn't kill for religion either, which was your point. Starboard Tack Apr 2012 #124

YES. Thank you. +1000 Taverner Apr 2012 #143

Go back and reread the history of the Crusades. Thats my opinion Apr 2012 #110

Totally agree. nt humblebum Apr 2012 #116

Nope nothing to do with religion here. Jesus is pure. Amen. Taverner Apr 2012 #145

The most enlightening and revealing Crusade was the Albigensian Crusade. Fought with great dimbear May 2012 #181

Are you really that naive? harmonicon Apr 2012 #18

"The Crusades were a series of religious expeditionary wars blessed by the Pope..." Taverner Apr 2012 #36

"stated goal" harmonicon Apr 2012 #39

Um, back then stated goals were how they spread Taverner Apr 2012 #40

I really don't think it's any different today. harmonicon Apr 2012 #44

Really? You mean a world where news traveled by horseback... Taverner Apr 2012 #48

The human beings are essentially the same, yeah. harmonicon Apr 2012 #51

Humans are, the media that connect us, not so Taverner Apr 2012 #53

Must admit I had to pause on that one too. Starboard Tack Apr 2012 #97

atheists and anger pokerfan Apr 2012 #8

I don't like painting with a broad brush longship Apr 2012 #9

Religion isn't going away, but maybe its methods can Taverner Apr 2012 #12

Dennett calls it epidemiology longship Apr 2012 #23

Perhaps. And perhaps we can eliminate it. Taverner Apr 2012 #37

Thank you, Taverner. longship Apr 2012 #43

I agree - and that is why I think all of us need a dialogue going Taverner Apr 2012 #47

That is our strength longship Apr 2012 #52

Twice now you have said you want religion to "go away" or "we can eliminate it." Thats my opinion Apr 2012 #112

Good addition to the post. Thanks. Scuba Apr 2012 #15

Thank you, sir, or Madame longship Apr 2012 #20

Don't call me "sir", I work for a living.... Scuba Apr 2012 #21

I grovel! I grovel! longship Apr 2012 #25

Yep. Agreed. Taverner Apr 2012 #38

Bigots are still bigots no matter what they just write off or distort nt Thats my opinion Apr 2012 #56

Yes, and if someone writes off skepticscott Apr 2012 #132

Nicely put. cachukis Apr 2012 #19

+1 CJCRANE Apr 2012 #24

Unnecessarily decisive? Not really. longship Apr 2012 #27

I said that because it makes no distinction between conservative and liberal christians. CJCRANE Apr 2012 #28

I agree 100%. The liberal theists are not standing up longship Apr 2012 #30

Look at it this way - if you are part of a group that has done a lot of damage Taverner Apr 2012 #46

If you really want to know why so few theists post here---just read through the posts Thats my opinion Apr 2012 #57

Umm, can't see I've seen somebody told to "fuck off" all that much here... eqfan592 Apr 2012 #59

You're joking. Right? LTX Apr 2012 #72

No, I'm not joking. eqfan592 Apr 2012 #90

I have never told you to fuck off Taverner Apr 2012 #99

Thank you. Bigotry in any form puts blinders on the eyes of reason. nt Thats my opinion Apr 2012 #82

It isn't religion that divides people, but ethnic, tribal and other in-group eridani Apr 2012 #64

"It isn't religion that divides people, but ............" dimbear Apr 2012 #68

Looking at all of human history-- eridani Apr 2012 #100

Well done. Thank you, longship. cbayer Apr 2012 #26

I've got your back! longship Apr 2012 #29

Morph into a less toxic form? Thats my opinion Apr 2012 #55

So you are saying that religion is toxic? eqfan592 Apr 2012 #58

You bet! Thats my opinion Apr 2012 #60

Could you provide a specific example from this thread.... eqfan592 Apr 2012 #63

Yawn... mr blur Apr 2012 #69

Let's split the difference here longship Apr 2012 #89

So, you are stating that atheists are against the common people? humblebum Apr 2012 #91

Ahem! I didn't say that, now did I longship Apr 2012 #101

Why is it then that you don't put it in context of the first century CE? humblebum Apr 2012 #102

I thought the dates in the quote were sufficient longship Apr 2012 #103

It's a nice theory, but where are they? Also, atheists aren't looking to wipe out religion. jeff47 Apr 2012 #75

While I have see surveys that confirm that religious people in general would not cbayer Apr 2012 #77

Will take a while to dig up the data jeff47 Apr 2012 #84

If there was any support from the liberal religious community regarding the RI cbayer Apr 2012 #85

I think we basically agree on some things longship Apr 2012 #86

You make excellent points here longship Apr 2012 #148

+1 Well said. Starboard Tack Apr 2012 #128

Very little of that is why I am bothered by believers dmallind Apr 2012 #10

That is part 2, if there were to be one Taverner Apr 2012 #49

The day I refer to atheists as "idiots," put me down hard! Thats my opinion Apr 2012 #61

Your daughter called a group of Christians "dumbasses." trotsky Apr 2012 #70

+1,000,000,000,000,000,000 Odin2005 Apr 2012 #32

I find myself having little anger, and when I do, it's usually for how misogynistic religious Evoman Apr 2012 #54

I too am embarrassed by that sort of thing, Thats my opinion Apr 2012 #62

Randians? You mean like that Objectivist shite? Evoman Apr 2012 #94

If you go by empathy, logic and reason, there is no place for misogyny, racism, or social darwinism Taverner Apr 2012 #88

Righteous rant! backscatter712 Apr 2012 #74

No one should be condemned, shunned and belittled.I'll fight with you when I hear about that. Thats my opinion Apr 2012 #113

See Post 70 skepticscott Apr 2012 #125

You just crossed a line there. Time to back up. Starboard Tack Apr 2012 #129

I didn't say this: skepticscott Apr 2012 #131

If the "you" is me, the great long list of accusations is the product of something Thats my opinion Apr 2012 #78

Any ideology can be twisted around felix_numinous Apr 2012 #83

If you disassociate meaning from all terms, then yes, nobody's responsible Taverner Apr 2012 #87

Peace- felix_numinous Apr 2012 #108

and leaders of non-Christian groups have done far worse. Keep things in perspective. kwassa May 2012 #150

These communist leaders were leaders that happened to be atheists.. eqfan592 May 2012 #152

It's pretty obvious that you are expounding on things that you know little about. humblebum May 2012 #163

While I stand corrected on some of the specifics. eqfan592 May 2012 #164

Doesn't appear that way to me. Organized atheism inside Russia had extensive ties humblebum May 2012 #168

Amazingly enough, C. Hitchens doesn't necessarily represent all atheists. eqfan592 May 2012 #169

Did I say that he represented all atheists? I doubt if any single person does. Nor does humblebum May 2012 #170

What is this strong influence you speak of? eqfan592 May 2012 #173

Are you saying that Hitchens had no influence upon the atheist community? nt humblebum May 2012 #174

There's a pretty huge gulf between "strong influence" and "no influence." (nt) eqfan592 May 2012 #175

If Hitchens was considered to be one of "The Four Horsemen" of humblebum May 2012 #176

This message was self-deleted by its author eqfan592 May 2012 #178

I think you're missing my point, but I should have clarified. eqfan592 May 2012 #178

You seem to be drifting ever farther away from the main points. I am aware of Trotsky's humblebum May 2012 #184

You brought Trotsky into the conversation to begin with. eqfan592 May 2012 #185

Same source as before. humblebum May 2012 #186

Ok. And for the rest of my post? (nt) eqfan592 May 2012 #187

You just keep drift farther away don't you? humblebum May 2012 #188

If you are unwilling to see for yourself... eqfan592 May 2012 #191

I would question who it is doing the flailing and also humblebum May 2012 #193

Have an effect? Yes. eqfan592 May 2012 #194

You make a false distinction. No True Atheist, er, No True Scotsman. kwassa May 2012 #165

By saying that they were atheists, eqfan592 was in no way invoking a No True Scotsman. laconicsax May 2012 #167

I know exactly what NTS is, and also know that it has been falsely applied ... kwassa May 2012 #197

Well, your clear misuse would indicate otherwise. laconicsax May 2012 #200

THANK YOU! eqfan592 May 2012 #201

If the distinction was an accurate one, you'd be right. However, humblebum May 2012 #202

Sorry, but that still doesn't really work, humblebum. eqfan592 May 2012 #207

Oh, now it's "leader of atheists as his primary role" and no longer simply humblebum May 2012 #209

lol yes, I'm drifting. eqfan592 May 2012 #211

Well, then Obama is an atheist leader too. laconicsax May 2012 #214

To my knowledge he has never laid out a program for the inculcation of humblebum May 2012 #216

I see your goalposts are still on wheels. n/t laconicsax May 2012 #218

Your standard dodge. nt humblebum May 2012 #219

I admit, I often dodge your points by pointing out that they're logical fallacies. laconicsax May 2012 #221

You are the one who compared Obama to Stalin, not me. nt humblebum May 2012 #222

No, I pointed out that by your standards, Obama is an "atheist leader." laconicsax May 2012 #223

Hardly. nt humblebum May 2012 #224

Completely agree. I think it needs to be removed from the playbook. cbayer May 2012 #208

Here is my main point for you again. eqfan592 May 2012 #172

Some atheists were mass murderers. kwassa May 2012 #198

What about my argument was specious? eqfan592 May 2012 #199

"Atheism is a subset of Communism"? mr blur May 2012 #206

If by "communism" is meant "Marxist-Leninist" Communism in the USSR, then humblebum May 2012 #210

You realize that makes literally no sense whatsoever, right? eqfan592 May 2012 #212

Marxist-Leninist Communists in the CPSU did not constitute the entirety of Marxist humblebum May 2012 #220

Actually, "Bubba", you missed the point entirely. eqfan592 May 2012 #228

You are right. Communists are really a subset of atheists. kwassa May 2012 #232

At best you could say all their crimes were commited by a very specific... eqfan592 May 2012 #236

This message was self-deleted by its author humblebum May 2012 #217

Do we still have to address this? Act_of_Reparation May 2012 #153

Unfortunately, the people who need to understand that refuse to take the class. darkstar3 May 2012 #166

I believe the word you seek, darkstar, is "pathetic". opiate69 May 2012 #171

"in the name of" is a meaningless argument. kwassa May 2012 #225

No, their single-minded desire for absolute hegemony led to the strategy darkstar3 May 2012 #226

Yes, the absolute hegemony of state atheism. That was the humblebum May 2012 #227

Of the Communist Party. Take your alternate history hate elsewhere. darkstar3 May 2012 #229

The Communist Party replaced the Czar, Scientific Atheism replaced religion. nt humblebum May 2012 #230

And this contradicts my point, how? darkstar3 May 2012 #234

As always, still conflating the two. nt humblebum May 2012 #235

Yes, that's exactly what you've been doing all along, humblebum. (nt) eqfan592 May 2012 #237

oh, bullshit. Speaking of making things up ... kwassa May 2012 #231

I could give two shits about a Wikipedia post, but what's funny darkstar3 May 2012 #233

LOL! Yeah, you noticed that too? (nt) eqfan592 May 2012 #238

You don't get it. kwassa May 2012 #244

No, you don't get it. I haven't denied that the Communist Party was full of atheists. darkstar3 May 2012 #248

The major difference between the organized atheist movement in the Soviet Union and humblebum May 2012 #239

Look down. rrneck May 2012 #240

Do you have a response that has information in it? kwassa May 2012 #245

Who needs it? rrneck May 2012 #247

So now Communism was just a tool employed by atheists to kill people? darkstar3 May 2012 #241

Sometimes the truth hurts. But where you get hate out of that I have no idea. humblebum May 2012 #242

There was a strong atheist movement in Russia before the Revolution. So tell me, humblebum May 2012 #243

Nobody made that case, and your misrepresentation of it is wildly dishonest. kwassa May 2012 #246

Actually, humblebum made that case in #239. darkstar3 May 2012 #249

Humblebum definitely did not make the case that Communism was JUST anything. humblebum May 2012 #251

Talking about yourself in the third person is generally a sign of certain issues you should address. darkstar3 May 2012 #252

Out of arguments are we? nt humblebum May 2012 #253

Having already responded to the utter ridiculousness of #239, all that's left is to mock you openly. darkstar3 May 2012 #254

You are out of arguments. if you feel comfortable mocking facts humblebum May 2012 #255

How can I be your "guess"? LOL darkstar3 May 2012 #256

By joining the "Roman Orthodox Church." nt humblebum May 2012 #257

This sounds to me like the words of someone who has never read the Bible start to finish Act_of_Reparation May 2012 #154

Disagree... brooklynite May 2012 #189

I think this thread is a pretty good example of why we are mad at some believers. darkstar3 May 2012 #250

Yep the closed-mindedness and denial in the usual suspects... Taverner May 2012 #258

When it is constantly being bantered about that religion is responsible for most wars, or humblebum May 2012 #259