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Humanist_Activist

(7,670 posts)
80. Apologetics generally bore me but this shallow intellectualism is amusing....
Mon Apr 17, 2017, 01:43 AM
Apr 2017

[div class="excerpt" style="margin-left:1em; border:1px solid #bfbfbf; border-radius:0.4615em; box-shadow:-1px -1px 3px #999999 inset;"]So what were his inquiries? First, he wondered whether the resurrection stories were just fairy tales, pious inventions meant to take away our fear of death. But he learned that, in point of fact, many people claimed to have seen Jesus after his crucifixion, including five hundred at once. Moreover, most of the leaders of the early Church went to their deaths defending the legitimacy of what they taught. Would anyone do that for a myth or a legend of his own invention?

OK, let's unpack this one. First, the strawman, I don't know anyone who argues that the resurrection story is supposed to alleviate fear of death for everyone. It's the fact that Jesus saves you and you get to be resurrected later in paradise that is the selling point. But that's neither here nor there, the issue is this, out of the 4 canonical gospels, the earliest was possibly written as early as 30-40 years after Jesus died, with the others being written about 50-80 years later. These are lifetimes of differences we are talking about, and it shouldn't be no surprise that the shortest gospel, and the one with the least amount of elaboration, is also the one scholars think was written earlier.

[div class="excerpt" style="margin-left:1em; border:1px solid #bfbfbf; border-radius:0.4615em; box-shadow:-1px -1px 3px #999999 inset;"]But another question came to his mind: might they all have been victims of a mass hallucination? A psychologist patiently explained that waking dreams are not shared by hundreds of people at different times and different places. “If hundreds of individuals had the same hallucination, that would be a greater miracle than the resurrection,” she informed him with a smile.

This is a classic case of the Mandela effect combined with confirmation bias. You don't need to "make it up" consciously, but rather your brain just has to fool you into believing in it. It doesn't even have to take lifetimes for this to be achieved. Eyewitness testimony from last week is notoriously unreliable, much less from decades ago. People also have the gift of believing what they want to believe, to the level that even in the face of contrary evidence, they believe it regardless. Examples include the people who believe that Nelson Mandela died in the 1980s, people who have seen Elvis after he died, all sorts of witnesses to numerous paranormal, spiritualist and psuedo-scientific phenomenon. Were the witnesses who recited or were the sources for the canonical gospels any different from modern people?

The thing to keep in mind is that neither the people who had first or second hand accounts of Jesus resurrection, nor those who believed Nelson Mandela died were crazy or liars. They believed what they believed, and there was nothing wrong with them mentally. They could have been or were mistaken in their own memories, and that's normal. Happens to all of us, and accounts for things such as false memories and all sorts of incongruities with our memory are generally ignored because our brain tries to organize itself in a way so we don't go insane with contradictory and inaccurate memory, hence the ability to have cognitive dissonance. Every had an argument with a parent about what type of cake you had on your 10th birthday? It's kinda like that.

But of course, Strobel and Barron aren't psychologists or psychiatrists, and probably didn't consult with either to assist in answering the questions they had above. Combine this with mass psychology, for example, in-group think and in-group memory, and you can explain mass hallucinations quite easily. In fact, the Resurrection story isn't even unique here, there have been stories of apparitions of Jesus and/or Mary appearing in front of crowds for centuries. Same with UFOs and other phenomenon. Some of these the Catholic Church itself discounts as mass hysteria/hallucination.

This also explains why many people were and are willing to die for things that, in some cases, they themselves made up. Usually this occurs in the group setting, peer pressure is a powerful thing and can exaggerate such beliefs. Look at what happened with the Heaven's Gate cult? All that's required is that they sincerely had to believe it was true and that they were going to be "saved" from death somehow, and they happily died for that belief. These people weren't mentally unstable, they simply had a self destructive belief that they carried. There are numerous other examples throughout history, touching on every religious and nonreligious belief people have. Are all these beliefs true, or even worth dying for? Actually, are any beliefs worth dying for? Now that's a question for the ages.

[div class="excerpt" style="margin-left:1em; border:1px solid #bfbfbf; border-radius:0.4615em; box-shadow:-1px -1px 3px #999999 inset;"]But what about the reliability of the Christian texts themselves? Weren’t they written long after the events described? A Catholic priest, who is also an archeologist and specialist in ancient manuscripts, told him that the number of early copies of the Christian Gospels far surpasses that of any other ancient text, including the Iliad of Homer and the Dialogues of Plato.

I don't understand this argument at all, having read the Gospels myself, they seem to mostly written in a narrative style fitting epic or mythic storytelling, not much different from Iliad, quite a bit different from most of the Dialogues. Who is this priest he's referencing, and what evidence does this priest present that makes the Gospels extraordinary?

I actually read "The Case for Christ" quite a few years ago, and it was and is typical apologetics wrapped in pseudo-intellectual scholarism and philosophizing. Hence the reason why I said apologetics, and also theology, bore me. There's nothing to pursue here, there's no room for growth, there are a lot of hypotheticals, a lot of speculation, a lot of questions, and no means of getting the answers. In most cases, the questions themselves are nonsensical. Neither subject advances humanity one iota, not ethically, not intellectually. Fields of study for nothing.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

Is the virgin birth in the same category? greymattermom Apr 2017 #1
In the Catholic and Orthodox traditions, and some other Christian groups. rug Apr 2017 #4
Happily embraces reason Cartoonist Apr 2017 #2
I really doubt you're laughing. rug Apr 2017 #5
It made my day Cartoonist Apr 2017 #27
Your confusion between Ken Ham and Robert Barron explains your confusion about religion. rug Apr 2017 #36
Confusion? Cartoonist Apr 2017 #61
con·fu·sion rug Apr 2017 #62
In what way? Cartoonist Apr 2017 #64
What is in your head does not always translate to reality. rug Apr 2017 #65
He is risen Cartoonist Apr 2017 #68
Define the proof you say he is needed. rug Apr 2017 #69
Not that line of BS again. Cartoonist Apr 2017 #71
And you never answer it. rug Apr 2017 #72
Biblical scholarship Cartoonist Apr 2017 #73
The ultimate closed, prejudiced mind. rug Apr 2017 #74
Open it then Cartoonist Apr 2017 #75
I'm not your rabbi. rug Apr 2017 #82
The hate manual Cartoonist Apr 2017 #85
It'c clearly a manual you hate. rug Apr 2017 #94
Jesus tells us to "hate" our family, quote. Bretton Garcia Apr 2017 #103
If I had a talking snake like the one in the Bible.... Vinnie From Indy Apr 2017 #3
You'd also be as far from the topic as Uranus. rug Apr 2017 #6
I've read three of Strobel's books Orrex Apr 2017 #7
His book doesn't convince me either but he frames the question squarely. rug Apr 2017 #8
I agree that he frames the questions reasonably well Orrex Apr 2017 #9
Your second paragraph is illogical. rug Apr 2017 #10
"Nothing about religious belief can be stated with certainty." Orrex Apr 2017 #11
Incorrect. rug Apr 2017 #14
No, that's not the first thing to know about religious belief Orrex Apr 2017 #18
"believers"? Are you standing by that broad brush statement? rug Apr 2017 #38
"Religious beliefs can easliy be supported by logic after the datum is stated." Orrex Apr 2017 #43
You haven't answered my question about your broad brush. rug Apr 2017 #45
So your insults are ok, but mine are intolerable? Got it. Orrex Apr 2017 #50
By all means, "proactively witness". rug Apr 2017 #54
But here's the thing: Orrex Apr 2017 #55
I invited comment and debate, niot tired, repetitive antitheist slurs (like thatbetter than meme?) rug Apr 2017 #57
But your debates are tired from the outset Orrex Apr 2017 #66
Not nearly as tired as this: rug Apr 2017 #70
Rug, why do you do this? potone Apr 2017 #77
Thanks for yor concern, potone. rug Apr 2017 #81
Broad-brush Orrex Apr 2017 #120
Oh, I very clearly see where you two diverge. rug Apr 2017 #122
Similarly, I see where you diverge from people who can formulate an argument Orrex Apr 2017 #124
See, here's the thing Orrex Apr 2017 #121
For one who hates prosetylites you you give a fair mimicry. rug Apr 2017 #123
Where have I preached the good news about atheism? Orrex Apr 2017 #125
QED. rug Apr 2017 #126
LOL Orrex Apr 2017 #136
It's clear you don't realize you just demonstrated the point. rug Apr 2017 #137
Yes, some religionists are very fond of that tactic Orrex Apr 2017 #138
LOL rug Apr 2017 #139
QED Orrex Apr 2017 #140
EOD rug Apr 2017 #141
Barron argues as I do that Christianity DOES make empirical claims Bretton Garcia Apr 2017 #30
Actually, he states that classic Christianity is based on fact, not empiricism. rug Apr 2017 #39
Religion twists words around dishonestly, Peter warned Bretton Garcia Apr 2017 #46
Are you quoting an Epistle in support of your argument? rug Apr 2017 #49
Yes. I believe the Bible warns about itself. Bretton Garcia Apr 2017 #53
"Nothing about religious belief can be stated with certainty." AtheistCrusader Apr 2017 #118
Here is a take on Strobel's view of the resurrection, by Brent Landau still_one Apr 2017 #101
That, ultimately, is true. For both sides. rug Apr 2017 #102
We should thank Rug sincerely here. Bretton Garcia Apr 2017 #104
That's not framed, it's a low slow softball over the plate, designed to be hit by a believer. AtheistCrusader Apr 2017 #117
At least the reviewer edhopper Apr 2017 #12
Oh, Barron is no hack at all. rug Apr 2017 #15
didn't say he was a hack edhopper Apr 2017 #17
Sorry, I call a lot of clergy hacks, usually based on their insincerity and cynicism. rug Apr 2017 #20
I think he is biased edhopper Apr 2017 #21
I don't find Strobel's arguments convincing either. rug Apr 2017 #23
biased yes edhopper Apr 2017 #26
I've talked with Robert Barron. And Strobel's son Kyle. Bretton Garcia Apr 2017 #13
I'm dubious. rug Apr 2017 #16
Blog Kyle. Bretton Garcia Apr 2017 #19
Metamorpha. rug Apr 2017 #22
That's Kyle Bretton Garcia Apr 2017 #24
Here's his blog. rug Apr 2017 #25
When he called me "friend" at EWTN he was an up and coming priest Bretton Garcia Apr 2017 #28
He would still call you friend. rug Apr 2017 #37
So, does he uncover irrefutable physical proof of the Resurrection? PoindexterOglethorpe Apr 2017 #29
He's referring to the hearsay account written years after the purported fact, Orrex Apr 2017 #32
Sounds likely these guys all right Bretton Garcia Apr 2017 #33
Watch the movie. Read the book. rug Apr 2017 #40
He's preaching to the choir. People sworn to believe faithfully. Bretton Garcia Apr 2017 #51
Like hell he has. AtheistCrusader Apr 2017 #88
The hell he hasn't. rug Apr 2017 #96
I have several copies of his book. A throw-away theistic argument is to give someone AtheistCrusader Apr 2017 #99
The story is loaded: The story's premise puts the atheist at an unwinnable disadvantage. DetlefK Apr 2017 #31
Precisely. Flip it and that's exactly the antitheist method. rug Apr 2017 #41
Nice broadbrush Orrex Apr 2017 #84
Here's a meme for you. rug Apr 2017 #93
It's only unwinnable because there's no evidence. AtheistCrusader Apr 2017 #89
It's unwinnable because you attack the immaterial by demanding material evidence. rug Apr 2017 #95
*Ignoring the books of your faith claim the immaterial MADE everything material* AtheistCrusader Apr 2017 #97
But it does. rug Apr 2017 #107
False analogy Orrex Apr 2017 #108
Cliched replies. rug Apr 2017 #109
Ad hominem Orrex Apr 2017 #110
Red herring. rug Apr 2017 #111
No Orrex Apr 2017 #112
I've read it already. rug Apr 2017 #113
Does the author describe themself in the book and how he or she might be contacted? AtheistCrusader Apr 2017 #114
Exactly. Orrex Apr 2017 #115
Right. AtheistCrusader Apr 2017 #116
Terrific summary Orrex Apr 2017 #119
An ant doesn't know what a tool is. It's incapable. rug Apr 2017 #128
Right as usual sir. AtheistCrusader Apr 2017 #129
Tell me when they find ants using a sponge left behind a drywall. rug Apr 2017 #130
If I got shot down that hard I might be tempted to drop a non-sequitur and flee as well. AtheistCrusader Apr 2017 #131
You're a hero in your own mnid, Ace. rug Apr 2017 #132
Is that so? Lordquinton Apr 2017 #135
Special pleading Orrex Apr 2017 #105
Apples and oranges. rug Apr 2017 #106
At least apples and oranges are REAL. AtheistCrusader Apr 2017 #133
So is their difference. rug Apr 2017 #134
This guy can't really be much of a reporter PoindexterOglethorpe Apr 2017 #34
True. But? Bretton Garcia Apr 2017 #35
History is what happens in the real world. PoindexterOglethorpe Apr 2017 #44
I agree. Barron has more work to do. Bretton Garcia Apr 2017 #47
Read his review edhopper Apr 2017 #42
Rug tricked us with a misleading excerpt again !?!!?? Bretton Garcia Apr 2017 #48
Same old edhopper Apr 2017 #52
That's a pretty piss-poor - and stale - summary of the review. rug Apr 2017 #59
Careful, or you'll be accused of broad-brushing. Orrex Apr 2017 #56
Seeking succor in sympathetic quarters? rug Apr 2017 #60
No. Orrex Apr 2017 #67
That could be the title of the fucking book/movie in your OP. AtheistCrusader Apr 2017 #90
Squealing like a stuck pig could be the title of some responses. rug Apr 2017 #92
No, I mean your post was a genius paraphrase. AtheistCrusader Apr 2017 #100
Maybe you should read the whole link. rug Apr 2017 #58
+1000 Cattledog Apr 2017 #63
Jesus is always real to me. hrmjustin Apr 2017 #76
Strobel should not have been impressed with the idea Htom Sirveaux Apr 2017 #78
Elvis sightings were a staple of the National Inquirer Bretton Garcia Apr 2017 #79
Apologetics generally bore me but this shallow intellectualism is amusing.... Humanist_Activist Apr 2017 #80
Standard responses to apologetics Bretton Garcia Apr 2017 #83
Argument to populism is tricky. They still crank out some 1/3-1/2 million copies of Atlas Shrugged AtheistCrusader Apr 2017 #91
I was trying to be generous, and bringing up the point that it doesn't matter much if it was.... Humanist_Activist Apr 2017 #98
"Faith" attacks the science, history, of the Bible Bretton Garcia Apr 2017 #86
Barron never does History Bretton Garcia Apr 2017 #87
This message was self-deleted by its author ymetca Apr 2017 #127
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